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LD Travis Sanheim - Calgary Hitmen, WHL (2014, 17th, PHI)

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I imagine next year the hype will really begin when he makes Team Canada at the WJC.

I'm just glad we have a potential top pairing Dman with him. Oh...and one with Morin too. Oh....and could Ghost get to that level too?

Our future D is looking good. Hope it continues.
 
Tripod said:
I imagine next year the hype will really begin when he makes Team Canada at the WJC.

I'm just glad we have a potential top pairing Dman with him. Oh...and one with Morin too. Oh....and could Ghost get to that level too?

Our future D is looking good. Hope it continues.
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Plus there's a semi-decent chance we end up with another D prospect in this draft by possibly picking either Provorov or Werenski at 6-8th.
 
Curufinwe said:
I think he'd leapfrog Fleury, Honka, Milano and Vrana.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/draft.php?year=2014
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On what basis? Fleury is maybe having a disappointing season offensively but he was projected as a top 10 pick by pretty much every scouting service. Last summer in the WJC camp people were absolutely raving about him. The others you mentioned are all having excellent draft + 1 seasons, just like Sanheim. Not seeing many leapfrogging possibilities at this point.

Personally, the only leapfrog I would argue is Nick Ritchie because his lack of offensive production as a physically dominant 19 year old is concerning to me.
 
thrillhous said:
On what basis? Fleury is maybe having a disappointing season offensively but he was projected as a top 10 pick by pretty much every scouting service. Last summer in the WJC camp people were absolutely raving about him. The others you mentioned are all having excellent draft + 1 seasons, just like Sanheim. Not seeing many leapfrogging possibilities at this point.

Personally, the only leapfrog I would argue is Nick Ritchie because his lack of offensive production as a physically dominant 19 year old is concerning to me.
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So what kind of year would it have taken for Sanheim to leapfrog Fleury? :huh:


Things change, man. Over the course of this season, how much has the 2015 draft rankings changed? A lot. Why would the 2014 rankings change any less?
 
Draft rankings mean nothing at this point. Sanheim's having a great year, but it's not even so much the season he's having as it is the season Fleury's not having.

Calgary played Red Deer plenty of times this year. Go and watch the games and tell me who the better defenseman is. Fleury has better physical ability, but Sanheim is smarter and more creative with the puck.
 
hockeyfreak7 said:
So what kind of year would it have taken for Sanheim to leapfrog Fleury? :huh:


Things change, man. Over the course of this season, how much has the 2015 draft rankings changed? A lot. Why would the 2014 rankings change any less?
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FLYguy3911 said:
Draft rankings mean nothing at this point. Sanheim's having a great year, but it's not so much the season he's having as it is the season Fleury's not having.

Calgary played Red Deer plenty of times this year. Go and watch the games and tell me who the better defenseman is. Fleury has better physical ability, but Sanheim is smarter and more creative with the puck.
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Yes, please tell this Calgarian that regularly watches the Hitmen to start watching games. What a joke this board can be. FLYguy, I often like reading your posts but in what world do you get the right to assume from my post above that I haven't actually seen the players in question?

I say that the top 16 wouldn't change all that dramatically because all of the players in the top 16 have had very good seasons, with the exception of maybe Ritchie and Fleury. And with Ritchie I say that solely by stat-watching and by watching the WJC where I was very underwhelmed. With Fleury I say that only because I was very high on him last season and I was expecting more from him.

Last season Fleury was without a doubt the superior player. He was one of the better 17 year old blueliners I have ever seen in the Dub. Sanheim is looking awesome this year and I have very high hopes for him but I have seen Fleury enough to know what the Canes have in him.

One year has undoubtedly made them closer but Fleury's 17 year old season was so good that Sanheim's draft + 1 season isn't going to change what I think about which player is better. If Sanheim continues to improve next season and Fleury underwhelms again, well then I'd be at risk of ignoring the obvious. But not till then.
 
thrillhous said:
Yes, please tell this Calgarian that regularly watches the Hitmen to start watching games. What a joke this board can be. FLYguy, I often like reading your posts but in what world do you get the right to assume from my post above that I haven't actually seen the players in question?

I say that the top 16 wouldn't change all that dramatically because all of the players in the top 16 have had very good seasons, with the exception of maybe Ritchie and Fleury. And with Ritchie I say that solely by stat-watching and by watching the WJC where I was very underwhelmed. With Fleury I say that only because I was very high on him last season and I was expecting more from him.

Last season Fleury was without a doubt the superior player. He was one of the better 17 year old blueliners I have ever seen in the Dub. Sanheim is looking awesome this year and I have very high hopes for him but I have seen Fleury enough to know what the Canes have in him.

One year has undoubtedly made them closer but Fleury's 17 year old season was so good that Sanheim's draft + 1 season isn't going to change what I think about which player is better. If Sanheim continues to improve next season and Fleury underwhelms again, well then I'd be at risk of ignoring the obvious. But not till then.
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First, you took our responses far too personally.

Yes, Fleury was better in their draft year. But the season Sanheim just had is far better than even the best stretch Fleury has played.

For example, Kylington was the consensus #2 defender in this year's draft at the conclusion of last season. His game has not progressed to the degree that Werenski and Provorov have, and the rankings reflect that. Similarly, you can't ignore the fact that Sanheim's season this year was 1) objectively better than Fleury's and 2) that Fleury has never sustained for an extended period of time the level of play that Sanheim performed at this year.

If you want another example, Blake Clarke was a top five guy back in 2013. But after a year of regression, GMs and scouts did not just say, "Oh , well Clarke's draft-1 year old year was so good that everyone else's draft season isn't going to change what I think about which player is better". That's nonsensical to think that way.

Your perceptions should be constantly evolving as new information is presented. You're refusing to adjust for an entire season of new information.
 
hockeyfreak7 said:
First, you took our responses far too personally.

Yes, Fleury was better in their draft year. But the season Sanheim just had is far better than even the best stretch Fleury has played.

For example, Kylington was the consensus #2 defender in this year's draft at the conclusion of last season. His game has not progressed to the degree that Werenski and Provorov have, and the rankings reflect that. Similarly, you can't ignore the fact that Sanheim's season this year was 1) objectively better than Fleury's and 2) that Fleury has never sustained for an extended period of time the level of play that Sanheim performed at this year.

If you want another example, Blake Clarke was a top five guy back in 2013. But after a year of regression, GMs and scouts did not just say, "Oh , well Clarke's draft-1 year old year was so good that everyone else's draft season isn't going to change what I think about which player is better". That's nonsensical to think that way.

Your perceptions should be constantly evolving as new information is presented. You're refusing to adjust for an entire season of new information.
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I am not refusing to adjust to an entire season of new information. I have added this season's information to the information I already had about Sanheim and Fleury coming in, having watched them in 2013-14. You seem to only be seeing one side of the coin.

I was very impressed by Fleury when he was playing as a 17 year old and one does not easily forget that impression. I absolutely disagree with your statement that Fleury hasn't sustained for an extended period of time the level of play that Sanheim performed at this year. Sanheim last season was decent but you didn't really notice him the way you noticed Fleury.

Perhaps I should conclude that because you and FLYguy have Flyers in your avatars that you are Flyers fans. Then I should go one further and assume that you are therefore biased with respect to your views of Sanheim. But I see you guys posting about prospects all the time and you seem quite even-handed and knowledgeable. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might not be giving me.

I'm not a Canes fan or a Red Deer fan. Nor do I cheer for or against the Hitmen. I watch junior hockey because I like watching prospects. I like Sanheim a lot and have high hopes for him but I have also seen enough junior hockey to know that development isn't linear and that Fleury might re-establish his amazing play next season while Sanheim might have a disappointing season like Fleury is this year.
 
Watching the two play, there is no doubt in my mind, that right now, Sanheim is the better player than Fleury.

I've posted many, many times that Fleury ahead of Sanheim was the right choice at the draft last year. Given the information at that point, where Sanheim had only played 1 full season to Fleury's two, and had only played a half season at a top level against Fleury's full season, I fully support Fleury being drafted ahead of Sanheim.

That being said, Fleury has plateaued, or even regressed this season while Sanheim has shown astronomical growth. It's difficult to compare an offensive defenceman to a defencesive one, but give credit to Sanheim to winning the WHL defenceman scoring title. Sanheim's name is in the conversation for WHL defenceman of the year, Fleury's is not.

Further, watching the two, Sanheim drives the play whenever he is on the ice. Fleury does not. Again, they are different stylistically, but you notice Sanheim every time he is on the ice and you don't always notice Fleury. I am still high on Fleury and still think he'll be an NHL defenceman, but right now Sanheim is the better prospect.
 
Roo Mad Bro said:
Button thinks he's the best '96 defender not in the NHL.

What a shot/goal to cap off a great year. Tied 2-2 late in the game, and shows off a howitzer to clinch the division.

Pretty much clinched having the most points among dmen in the WHL.

Flyers took a chance on a "riser" who didn't have the pedigree & only had a 1/2 season of great play.

So far, Hextall and Co. are looking like geniuses.
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My eyes glaze over and a little of the hope in my beefy heart dies when I see this descriptor.
 
thrillhous said:
Yes, please tell this Calgarian that regularly watches the Hitmen to start watching games. What a joke this board can be. FLYguy, I often like reading your posts but in what world do you get the right to assume from my post above that I haven't actually seen the players in question?

I say that the top 16 wouldn't change all that dramatically because all of the players in the top 16 have had very good seasons, with the exception of maybe Ritchie and Fleury. And with Ritchie I say that solely by stat-watching and by watching the WJC where I was very underwhelmed. With Fleury I say that only because I was very high on him last season and I was expecting more from him.

Last season Fleury was without a doubt the superior player. He was one of the better 17 year old blueliners I have ever seen in the Dub. Sanheim is looking awesome this year and I have very high hopes for him but I have seen Fleury enough to know what the Canes have in him.

One year has undoubtedly made them closer but Fleury's 17 year old season was so good that Sanheim's draft + 1 season isn't going to change what I think about which player is better. If Sanheim continues to improve next season and Fleury underwhelms again, well then I'd be at risk of ignoring the obvious. But not till then.
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I never said you don't watch them play. I'm sure you do. I was making a general statement. They have been on the ice together a lot over the last year. You don't have to go very far to compare them. IMO, Sanheim has outplayed him most of the games. As I said in my last post, Fleury has the better physical tools, but Sanheim is just one of those kids that seems to be one step ahead of the play and that allows his tools to play up. He's better on the offensive end. Fleury can move the puck really well, but he's not the same player in the actual offensive zone. Sanheim is also sporting a kid's body, while Fleury is near-pro ready in that regard.

Fleury's tools are always going to give him a chance. Even if the offense doesn't rebound, he should be able to handle a shutdown role at the next level.
 
foxygen said:
I realize there have been some dark days on your blueline over the last few years, but with Sanheim, Gostisbehere, and Morin coming up, you guys have so much to be excited for.
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Yeah those guys are the big name high upside guys but we have solid depth behind them as well in Robert Hagg, Mark Friedman, Valeri Vasiliev, etc. The list could even grow this draft since we have a handful of picks in the first four rounds.

I'm looking forward to the days that we hopefully have good cost controlled defense.
 
There is no way any sane GM would have taken Sanheim over Fleury last summer with his one good half season of play. I'd bet 30 GM's now would take Sanheim over him though, things change.
 
denominator said:
Watching the two play, there is no doubt in my mind, that right now, Sanheim is the better player than Fleury.

I've posted many, many times that Fleury ahead of Sanheim was the right choice at the draft last year. Given the information at that point, where Sanheim had only played 1 full season to Fleury's two, and had only played a half season at a top level against Fleury's full season, I fully support Fleury being drafted ahead of Sanheim.

That being said, Fleury has plateaued, or even regressed this season while Sanheim has shown astronomical growth. It's difficult to compare an offensive defenceman to a defencesive one, but give credit to Sanheim to winning the WHL defenceman scoring title. Sanheim's name is in the conversation for WHL defenceman of the year, Fleury's is not.

Further, watching the two, Sanheim drives the play whenever he is on the ice. Fleury does not. Again, they are different stylistically, but you notice Sanheim every time he is on the ice and you don't always notice Fleury. I am still high on Fleury and still think he'll be an NHL defenceman, but right now Sanheim is the better prospect.
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Totally fair. I see more out of Fleury than you do, even from what I have seen this season, but different people see different things

FLYguy3911 said:
I never said you don't watch them play. I'm sure you do. I was making a general statement. They have been on the ice together a lot over the last year. You don't have to go very far to compare them. IMO, Sanheim has outplayed him most of the games. As I said in my last post, Fleury has the better physical tools, but Sanheim is just one of those kids that seems to be one step ahead of the play and that allows his tools to play up. He's better on the offensive end. Fleury can move the puck really well, but he's not the same player in the actual offensive zone. Sanheim is also sporting a kid's body, while Fleury is near-pro ready in that regard.

Fleury's tools are always going to give him a chance. Even if the offense doesn't rebound, he should be able to handle a shutdown role at the next level.
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Fair enough. Maybe I'm oversensitive to the constant "you must have never seen him play" comments that some posters make when another disagrees with their assessment of a player.

Spartans2810 said:
There is no way any sane GM would have taken Sanheim over Fleury last summer with his one good half season of play. I'd bet 30 GM's now would take Sanheim over him though, things change.
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See this is where I take exception, IMO both statements are overstatements. A "sane" GM would trust the scouting staff he has hired to do the job and if his staff believed that Sanheim was the better player (like Philly may have last year, who knows) they would have picked him over Fleury. Same would apply if the draft were held this summer; you can't tell me that some organizations would not prefer Fleury based on his accomplishments so far compared to Sanheim's.
 
thrillhous said:
Totally fair. I see more out of Fleury than you do, even from what I have seen this season, but different people see different things



Fair enough. Maybe I'm oversensitive to the constant "you must have never seen him play" comments that some posters make when another disagrees with their assessment of a player.



See this is where I take exception, IMO both statements are overstatements. A "sane" GM would trust the scouting staff he has hired to do the job and if his staff believed that Sanheim was the better player (like Philly may have last year, who knows) they would have picked him over Fleury. Same would apply if the draft were held this summer; you can't tell me that some organizations would not prefer Fleury based on his accomplishments so far compared to Sanheim's.
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His comments could be true...today. But as we have seen with prospects....it could very well be 100% wrong next year.

All I know is that Sanheim had the year we hoped he would have...not sure the same could be said about Fleury.

Maybe there is extra dis-like for Hayden due to his last name....lol.
 
The argument I'm seeing here is "Fleury was" and Fleury could be"... not "Fleury is". Completely ignoring the present and basing your argument on the past and what might happen doesn't make a strong case.
 
Not trying to continue to Fleury vs Sanheim debate from Mr. Button's quotes, but I will add my two cents.

The whole Red Deer's team has been an offensive blackhole this season, in particular the first 2-3 months of the season was like watching a season of Jacques Lemaire. Not that they weren't trying, but completely snakebitten.* Fleury would be much better on a more offence talented team like Everett, Portland, or Brandon. He is going through a lot of growing pains...it might actually make him a better player in the long run since he is running through diversity while Sanheim has had his development on a nice easy track. BUT there is no doubt in my mind that Sanheim has been the better overall player this season and deserves all the praise he has been given.

Sanheim should always be the better offensive player, his puck rushes have been such a treat to watch this season, but Fleury should definitely be the better defensive player. Both players though are good at both ends of ice and are able to rush the puck. Of course I am speaking in hypothetical potential and how they "should" pan out, which never is the case.

*= I don't think Sanheim would have had the same success he is having with Hitmen if he was on the Rebels to start the season, it killed a lot of players confidences'.
 
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denominator said:
This, I completely agree with.

Never forget that Fleury is on a team coached by a Sutter.
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But if you swapped them, I don't think Fleury puts up Sanheim like numbers.

Fleury is an awesome skater with great size and agility, but he doesn't have any dynamic offensive qualities. Yes he can skate the puck up the ice, but similar to Bowey, he gets the blueline and then the play dies. It's the end product that he lacks.

He's going to be a long time NHL player for sure, but the difference between a top 4 stay at home staple and a guy who can play and run a 1st unit PP is vast.
 
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