Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[bland]

I could be wrong, but I think you are missing the sarcasm.

The original post was so stupid that I can't blame him.

 

[Bandit]

But it's not that simple.
If you reduce Kopitar's ice time it means Kempe and Iafallo are also off the ice. So we keep our 2 best wingers on the bench more often?

The problem is deployment and the lines. If you want Kopi's ice time to be reduced, don't make him play the special teams either PK or PP, again the coaching staff will not do this.

And the bolded is the problem. Kopitar should not be killing penalties at this point in his career, period.

 

[YP44]

And the bolded is the problem. Kopitar should not be killing penalties at this point in his career, period.

Other than Danault not sure there is a better option at center yet than Kopitar. the PK is so trach though that you may as well try Lizotte or Turcotte.

 

[cyclones22]

Other than Danault not sure there is a better option at center yet than Kopitar. the PK is so trach though that you may as well try Lizotte or Turcotte.

Lizotte 100%. He's good at the dot and has good PK metrics. With the Kings PK "scheme", players like Danault and Lizotte are better options for the sole fact that they move better and faster than Kopi does.

 

[BringTheReign]

One thing that rarely gets brought up in these discussions is Kopitar himself. Kopitar has been the most important part of this team since 2006, and is a future 1st ballot HOFer. He has earned a say, and as we know TMac and Blake both keep him in the loop regarding team planning and outlook.

Do you really think one of the most talented, successful players of the past two decades is just going to be okay with reduced minutes? I get that there's chain of command, but again, Kopi has earned the longest leash of anyone in the org, so if he says he wants to play big minutes then he'll get every opportunity to continue doing it.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it's just likely a reality of the situation. These are competitive, proud, professional athletes we're talking about. The same goes for Doughty and all the same critiques on his icetime. You think Drew wouldn't notice if his minutes were reduced? Kopitar is quieter to the media, but we have no idea what convos go on between captain and coach.

 

[Mats26]

Other than Danault not sure there is a better option at center yet than Kopitar. the PK is so trach though that you may as well try Lizotte or Turcotte.

It's not a personnel problem, we got a trash special teams coach that thinks a passive 1-1-2 is going to work when clearly the cross ice passes are killing us.

Go back to a 2-2 aggressive on the D with clearing bodies in the front of the net. Look at the Pens PK, they never stop skating , no wonder they rank #1 on the PK.

 

[kingsfan]

Good grief. Seriously, that's your argument? That he hasn't played WELL below his ability and that nothing is a concern... because the team has people that make sure it doesn't happen?

If you can't, though it sounds more like don't want, to see it, that is entirely on you.

Where did I say he's playing below his ability at all?

Kopitar's performance has been a discussion point on these boards for years. His usage has been debated since the days of Terry Murray at least, this is nothing new, yet every year it comes out about the same. He's been a consistent performer throughout his career, including streaks and slumps. 2016-2017 is perhaps the loan outlier.

Just because you want it to be an issue, that's on you.

So you ask, several answer, you pick one and call BS, and provide a nebulous justification of "there are metrics that are used to ensure peak performance." But of course provide no specifics of your own to discuss how he's playing well, relative to his past performances.

Did I miss anything?

I picked one because it covers my answer to probably all (barring anyone I may have blocked that replied obviously).

What specifics would you like to provide? As I said, and showed, his ice time is extremely consistent with past seasons, he's a player who has had peaks and valleys every damn year and I see no deviation from that this year. He's also clearly the best option we have for top line C. He's playing the minutes he's always played and is having a season quite consistent with other seasons.

I asked what the ideal ice time was and it seems like 20-ish minutes is what posters want. He's at 21:11 a game, or about two shifts a game above where posters want him, playing the same type of minutes by and large with where he has in the past. Sorry, I'm quite comfortable playing him what he's playing now. But I guess we should ignore "metrics" provided by expect staff "to ensure peak performance" because a bunch of posters think he's playing two shifts a game to many? Ok.

 

[King'sPawn]

One thing that rarely gets brought up in these discussions is Kopitar himself. Kopitar has been the most important part of this team since 2006, and is a future 1st ballot HOFer. He has earned a say, and as we know TMac and Blake both keep him in the loop regarding team planning and outlook.

Do you really think one of the most talented, successful players of the past two decades is just going to be okay with reduced minutes? I get that there's chain of command, but again, Kopi has earned the longest leash of anyone in the org, so if he says he wants to play big minutes then he'll get every opportunity to continue doing it.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it's just likely a reality of the situation. These are competitive, proud, professional athletes we're talking about. The same goes for Doughty and all the same critiques on his icetime. You think Drew wouldn't notice if his minutes were reduced? Kopitar is quieter to the media, but we have no idea what convos go on between captain and coach.

And that's a fair point. I say this as someone who has been in many arguments defending Kopitar.

But athletes are competitive and prideful. Kopitar himself played a chunk of a season with an injured hand where he could barely shoot.

The athlete, understandably, will always want to play. And that's why he really shouldn't have a say, if that's a contributing factor.

 

[Sol]

This board cracks me up.Just say I sleep well knowing Blake is our GM and not a HFBOARDS poster.

I don’t know, I think I’d sleep easier if RJ was the GM rather than Blake

 

[crassbonanza]

Sorry, I'm quite comfortable playing him what he's playing now. But I guess we should ignore "metrics" provided by expect staff "to ensure peak performance" because a bunch of posters think he's playing two shifts a game to many? Ok.

He has the second most minutes among forwards in the league right now behind Ovechkin. Big difference between the two is that Ovechkin has played 44 seconds on the PK, while Kopi has logged 76 minutes. Kopitar is a fairly large outlier when it comes to time on ice, like you said that has always been the case, but you can not expect a veteran to maintain his ability as he ages. Just because 22 year old Kopi could handle those huge minutes just fine does not mean that 34 year old Kopi will. It should be totally fair to question whether all of those minutes are affecting his play and whether we should be more cautious with his minutes for both this season and future ones.

 

[RaymondReddington]

Do you really think one of the most talented, successful players of the past two decades is just going to be okay with reduced minutes?

I would hope to God he would be pissed off.
I would also hope the coach would have the balls to do whatever is necessary for the team to win.

 

[cyclones22]

He has the second most minutes among forwards in the league right now behind Ovechkin. Big difference between the two is that Ovechkin has played 44 seconds on the PK, while Kopi has logged 76 minutes. Kopitar is a fairly large outlier when it comes to time on ice, like you said that has always been the case, but you can not expect a veteran to maintain his ability as he ages. Just because 22 year old Kopi could handle those huge minutes just fine does not mean that 34 year old Kopi will. It should be totally fair to question whether all of those minutes are affecting his play and whether we should be more cautious with his minutes for both this season and future ones.

Under Sutter, Kopi's minutes were managed better. His TOI under Sutter was less than it is now and that was prime younger Kopi. It wasn't until Blake promoted Stevens prior to Kopi's Hart nom season and then hired Desjardins who decided to try and run Kopi and Drew into the ground for a lotto team that his minutes started escalating. TMc shaved a minute off of it but is still higher minutes than under Sutter for a much older Kopi. Oh and not coincidentally, Sutter also deployed our offensive prospects like Toffoli on a line with Richards and Carter to break in his career, not grinders, but that's another discussion.

 

[King'sPawn]

I picked one because it covers my answer to probably all (barring anyone I may have blocked that replied obviously).

What specifics would you like to provide? As I said, and showed, his ice time is extremely consistent with past seasons, he's a player who has had peaks and valleys every damn year and I see no deviation from that this year. He's also clearly the best option we have for top line C. He's playing the minutes he's always played and is having a season quite consistent with other seasons.

I asked what the ideal ice time was and it seems like 20-ish minutes is what posters want. He's at 21:11 a game, or about two shifts a game above where posters want him, playing the same type of minutes by and large with where he has in the past. Sorry, I'm quite comfortable playing him what he's playing now. But I guess we should ignore "metrics" provided by expect staff "to ensure peak performance" because a bunch of posters think he's playing two shifts a game to many? Ok.

Is it worth discussing specifics? You already called the eye test BS and RJ previously provided analytics which are declining.

That average ice time is still higher than normal when a) he plays harder minutes AND is expected to be the top scorer year after year. That also includes a smattering of games below average which simply make it look better.

For example, the MOST minutes Patrice Bergeron has averaged in his career was 20:49. And that's when he was 21 years old. I pick Bergeron, because he's the best contemporary of playing similar difficult minutes while being a top scorer.

Barkov's TOP average time is 22:21. When he was 23 years old.

Kopitar's LOWEST average ice time in a season is 19:23. In 15/16 seasons, he has averaged over 20:00. In 6 of those he averages over 21:00. In 2 of those, he averages over 22:00 a game. While being the top scorer. While being the top PKing forward. While currently being 34 years old.

That is a lot of extra miles and wear and tear on one of the greatest Kings of all time.

This isn't an affront to him. But Kopitar's being pushed BECAUSE even at less than 100%, he's better than most. That doesn't mean he's playing well. And that doesn't mean it's the best or right.

 

[lumbergh]

A few statistical oddities at the half-way mark of the season. Special teams is the theme today.

Kings' best penalty killer is... I'll give you three guesses. Wrong. Wrong. Last chance... Wrong. It's Sean Durzi! 24 minutes of PK time, zero goals against. For a forward, Blake Lizotte has been on the ice for 6 goals against, but 3 shorthanded goals for, so really quite good.

Worst penalty killer is... Drew Doughty. Boy does he get scored on a lot while killing penalties. A whopping 18.65 goals against per 60 minutes of PK.

Best player on the power play? Vladimir Tkachev with two points in 10 minutes of PP time, 17 goals for per 60. He might be good at this. For an actual regular player, that title would also go to Sean Durzi. 46 minutes of PP, 6 goals for, no shorties allowed. F

Worst player on the power play? I know many of you will guess Dustin Brown, but it's actually Matt Roy by a country mile. In 46 minutes of PP time, 3 goals for, 3 goals against for a net goal differential of zero on the power play. Oof.

I'd list stats for empty net special teams, but being that the Kings have yet to score a goal with the goalie pulled, it's all ugly.

Absolutely zero of us would have guessed that the best rookie on the team thus far would be Sean Durzi, but these numbers don't lie. He's fun to watch and made the team measurably better in key roles.

 

[kingsfan]

He has the second most minutes among forwards in the league right now behind Ovechkin. Big difference between the two is that Ovechkin has played 44 seconds on the PK, while Kopi has logged 76 minutes. Kopitar is a fairly large outlier when it comes to time on ice, like you said that has always been the case, but you can not expect a veteran to maintain his ability as he ages. Just because 22 year old Kopi could handle those huge minutes just fine does not mean that 34 year old Kopi will. It should be totally fair to question whether all of those minutes are affecting his play and whether we should be more cautious with his minutes for both this season and future ones.

Fair point. No, I cannot expect Kopitar now to be the same as 22 year old Kopitar, and you're right, it is totally valid to question the minute load.

All I'm saying is it's not a given the minute load should drop and the biggest critic I see expressed here is the eye test isn't what people want. But eye tests are subjective, and some players -just like Ovechkin- can log big minutes much later into their careers than others. Maybe Kopitar has fallen off from when he was 22, or maybe he hasn't. Who are we to say?

It's fair to question the ice time total, absolutely, but all I'm doing to counter arguing that the ice time is fine as is. That's just as fair of a statement.

 

[kingsfan]

Is it worth discussing specifics? You already called the eye test BS and RJ previously provided analytics which are declining.

That average ice time is still higher than normal when a) he plays harder minutes AND is expected to be the top scorer year after year. That also includes a smattering of games below average which simply make it look better.

For example, the MOST minutes Patrice Bergeron has averaged in his career was 20:49. And that's when he was 21 years old. I pick Bergeron, because he's the best contemporary of playing similar difficult minutes while being a top scorer.

Barkov's TOP average time is 22:21. When he was 23 years old.

Kopitar's LOWEST average ice time in a season is 19:23. In 15/16 seasons, he has averaged over 20:00. In 6 of those he averages over 21:00. In 2 of those, he averages over 22:00 a game. While being the top scorer. While being the top PKing forward. While currently being 34 years old.

That is a lot of extra miles and wear and tear on one of the greatest Kings of all time.

This isn't an affront to him. But Kopitar's being pushed BECAUSE even at less than 100%, he's better than most. That doesn't mean he's playing well. And that doesn't mean it's the best or right.

All good points.

I didn't see RJ's analytics for previously stated reasons.

I'm all for a debate on the ice time. It's all valid when anyone is near the top of the heap in anything like ice time. My bigger concern is how he's being deployed. O-zone starts are up from last year which is good but the PK time makes no sense, more so due to outcomes than Kopitar's durability. To me, the reason to get Danualt is to be a premier shutdown centre that has a strong two-way game and to eat up some PK time. Kopi's PK time per game has only declined 15 seconds a game, Danault's has dropped 34 seconds a game from where it was last year in Montreal and is slightly below Kopitar. That part makes no sense to me. Why sign a guy to be (in part) a PKer then cut his PK time when we are 29th in the league on the PK.

 

[Bandit]

Other than Danault not sure there is a better option at center yet than Kopitar. the PK is so trach though that you may as well try Lizotte or Turcotte.

Yeah I mean it's not like our PK is good. Kopitar is going out there and losing draws and getting scored on, might as well give someone else a chance, even if there are some growing pains.

I would hope to God he would be pissed off.
I would also hope the coach would have the balls to do whatever is necessary for the team to win.

Kopitar pissed off? that's rich. He only gets mad at the crossbar when the final buzzer sounds and we fail to score 6-5 for the 1000th time.

Absolutely zero of us would have guessed that the best rookie on the team thus far would be Sean Durzi, but these numbers don't lie. He's fun to watch and made the team measurably better in key roles.

Which is exactly why our f***nut coaching staff played him a whopping 12:10 last night, least of any defenseman and only more than Grundstrom/Byfield/Brown.

 

[tbrown33]

And the bolded is the problem. Kopitar should not be killing penalties at this point in his career, period.

that cannot be stressed enough

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

that cannot be stressed enough
View attachment 501372

I'm looking that and I swear that can not be the same player everyone is shitting on right now saying he needs to play less......

Is that the same player? When according to that, his metrics are up.....except for PK and PP......is that right?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Lmao, Kingsfan seriously blocked me because he's sour about the stats? That's hilarious.

I would hope to God he would be pissed off.
I would also hope the coach would have the balls to do whatever is necessary for the team to win.

God this, 100x this. It's that simple. I hope he's mad--go earn back your minutes and stop playing in conservation mode. The message doesn't have to be 'you suck, Drew'. I trust a professional coach and professional athletes to be able to have the conversation, f*** we don't have a problem benching rookies for a whole period over one mistake, we better not have a problem conserving elite athletes by giving them 2-3 less shifts so they can be fresher when it counts. It's such a conflicting message--people are saying TM is doing what it takes to win--but when you look at the results, it's the exact opposite, especially when you look at what happens in the dying minutes of games.

I will take the experience of Blake over some random poster on a message board.

Okay, but Blake's experience finds Kopitar the only center on the team to be in the red with respect to goals for/goals against, his line regularly losing his matchups, and his special teams routinely getting crushed to the tune of some of the worst in the NHL, while our 2nd units are actually really really good--danault on the PK is operating at literally over twice the efficiency Kopitar is, while Lizotte is i th emiddle of those two. And that's the real issue this year--Kopitar's hustle/energy isn't good enough on the D side even if the offense is relatively there as per usual.

But it's not that simple.
If you reduce Kopitar's ice time it means Kempe and Iafallo are also off the ice. So we keep our 2 best wingers on the bench more often?

The problem is deployment and the lines. If you want Kopi's ice time to be reduced, don't make him play the special teams either PK or PP, again the coaching staff will not do this.

Both Iafallo and Kempe are already playing 2.5 - 3 minutes less than Kopitar. Seems like that's already happening.

One thing that rarely gets brought up in these discussions is Kopitar himself. Kopitar has been the most important part of this team since 2006, and is a future 1st ballot HOFer. He has earned a say, and as we know TMac and Blake both keep him in the loop regarding team planning and outlook.

Do you really think one of the most talented, successful players of the past two decades is just going to be okay with reduced minutes? I get that there's chain of command, but again, Kopi has earned the longest leash of anyone in the org, so if he says he wants to play big minutes then he'll get every opportunity to continue doing it.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it's just likely a reality of the situation. These are competitive, proud, professional athletes we're talking about. The same goes for Doughty and all the same critiques on his icetime. You think Drew wouldn't notice if his minutes were reduced? Kopitar is quieter to the media, but we have no idea what convos go on between captain and coach.

The thing is, you reduce his minutes...he's STILL playing big minutes!

If HE wants to play #1 dman minutes and is overruling TM, that's a bigger problem, because then you have entitled athletes running the show when their performance is CLEARLY subject to diminishing returns over a certain threshold.

 

[Kurrilino]

I'm looking that and I swear that can not be the same player everyone is shitting on right now saying he needs to play less......

Is that the same player? When according to that, his metrics are up.....except for PK and PP......is that right?

Hockey is played in the ice, not on a spreadsheet.
There is also no metric for playing without any will to fight or win, skating like on sleeping pills.
Kopitar is payed 10 mill and plays like 3mill.
The highest scoring points over the last 4 years are freaking 62 points.

All this is observed by everyone who actually watches games.

 

[mysterman2]

just me or does it seem like they are a lot fewer trades this season than years prior for the NHL as a whole?

 

[KINGS17]

Hockey is played in the ice, not on a spreadsheet.
There is also no metric for playing without any will to fight or win, skating like on sleeping pills.
Kopitar is payed 10 mill and plays like 3mill.
The highest scoring points over the last 4 years are freaking 62 points.

All this is observed by everyone who actually watches games.

Well said. As a longtime poster here, I must ask you if you are aware that you have one of the most famous posts ever on this board, and if you remember what you posted?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Hockey is played in the ice, not on a spreadsheet.
There is also no metric for playing without any will to fight or win, skating like on sleeping pills.
Kopitar is payed 10 mill and plays like 3mill.
The highest scoring points over the last 4 years are freaking 62 points.

All this is observed by everyone who actually watches games.

Got it....so then the metrics that everyone is posting, means absolutely f***all?

 

[BigKing]

that cannot be stressed enough
View attachment 501372

I'm stupid but why is the comparison last season v. last season plus this season? Shouldn't it be last season v. this season?