Rumor: Kypreos says Matthews will be 13.5M (Haggling over term)

[drktmplr12]

Then just get the trade done now. Say you're not willing to extend. That said, I think he and the team have had it pretty easy given the under achievements.

View attachment 732777

this was calculated by AM and his agent since day 1 of him signing a RFA contract at 11.6M per

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

If Claude Giroux can sign a 3-year deal at age 34, I think Matthews should be able to as well, considering he's supposed to be an elite player. Guys like Crosby and Ovechkin are still producing at a high level at 37. Matthews being reluctant to commit to 8-years right now is nothing more than greed on his part. He doesn't want to go 7-8 more years without getting his cut of an increasing cap. He wants to keep signing short-term deals so every 3-4 years he can start negotiating his next high cap % contract.

Giroux's 3 year contract was at 70% of his previous AAV's. Same with Malkin's last 3 year extension at age 35. My "intrepretation" of AM's approach here is that he wants to lock in contract years when he's 35+ at his "max value" (and not 70% of max value)_by signing a long term deal at 29'ish YO.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

If the Leafs apparently can’t put together a winning team around Matthews at $13.5m, what makes anyone think another team can?

I don’t understand how these two thoughts can be reconciled by simply changing the logo on the jersey

Just my $.02 - but a team can build a "contending" type roster with one player in that salary range. The problem with the Leafs is that they'd be paying at least 2 forwards (AM, MM) around that range, and for the next couple years you also have JT, which doesn't leave enough $ to add quality players to fill out the roster. IMO - there are a lot of different ways to build a contending roster - and it depends on a lot more than just what 1 guy makes.

Also - a team might be willing to pay AM to put butts in seats even if they're not a true Stanley Cup contender.

 

[Mackiaveli]

That is truly trying to maximize every dime you can get, and you almost never see it to that extent. Tough spot for Toronto if indeed this is what Matthews wants. It basically tells the team he cares way more about the money then the rest of the team and actually winning a cup with that group.

If he signs a 3 year deal, there is an approximately 0% chance the team doesn't trade him during the duration of that contract.

Losing a Matthews-level asset for FREE would be career suicide for whoever the GM is at the time.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

If he signs a 3 year deal, there is an approximately 0% chance the team doesn't trade him during the duration of that contract.

Losing a Matthews-level asset for FREE would be career suicide for whoever the GM is at the time.

I mean can't he technically just walk already if he really wanted to with no consequences? He has a NMC , all they have as a guarantee is his word and somebody's word can change quickly when presented with 14-15 million dollars.

Then again getting the deal done in advance secures him if he gets injured or something next year , tricky stuff

 

[PainForShane]

1.) lou offered Tavares 11 x 8. It is well known. He was so mad about it he actually petitioned the league to get the week talking period changed.

2.) there is also no evidence that lou is a good negotiator at this point. He signed kovalchuk to the biggest contract ever. He signed engvall for 7 x3. Zaitsev is an albatross. He could have signed willy for a year and didn’t.

1) You missed the point, maybe intentionally. Lou generally builds from the net out (hence why his other two teams NJD / NYI have had elite goalies, defensive D and generally outperform in the playoffs). Paying your 1C ~11m when you have cap space is completely different than paying the same amount for the same player to be your 2C when you don't have cap space.

Especially if your capped out team doesn't have a 1D or an elite starting goalie. Lou's long time starting goalies have been Brodeur and Sorokin, in Toronto he started with... Bernier and Reimer and Sparks?

I think everyone, including you, knows that as a Leaf Lou would've spent that cap space either trying to fix his goaltending / defense, like he tried to do when he signed Freddie a year or two before. With that Leafs roster in 2018, if he'd given up on Freddie by that point he would've tried to get / develop a better goalie like Brodeur / Sorokin, or if he believed in Freddie he would've tried to get / develop true shutdown defensemen like Adam Pelech, Stevens, etc before even considering upgrading at 2C. Everybody knows that's how he does things.

***

2) Compared to Dubas, yes Lou is a much better negotiator. Everyone, including you, knows this as well.

To your Engvall example, at 3m AAV he's more than fine, that's a bottom six player who will get you 30-40 points a year while playing 13-15 mins a night and not hurting you defensively. Sure, 2-2.5m would've been a better AAV, but that's exactly the type of depth the Leafs need / can't afford long term given their cap situation.

Have fun continuing your bad faith posts. At least you've moved on from pretending that playoff performance has no bearing on contracts, I guess that is something

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I really am curious what Matthew will get. If it is 13.5 let's say for 4 years.

I could see Nylander being a UFA rental and hit free agency because I am unsure if he can sign below 10 million after both of them hitting 40 goals.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I just want to see Matthews take the Leafs to the cleaners (again) to watch HF burn.

 

[centipede2233]

Just when you thought matthews couldn’t be more unlikable

 

[Jyrki]

You think the cap has cost players money? That's just flat out wrong. The cap has made a healthier league overall and with the players 50% ownership of league revenue the players have made more money with the cap.

The cap has always been an owner demand so they can drive contracts of top players down. From the perspective of the players they're under no obligation to fit themselves under a ceiling the owners imposed onto themselves, let alone when you consider their direction to impose a cap was the reason behind two lockouts.

Leagues with no caps also have revenue sharing; it's not a mutually exclusive feature.

 

[TS Quint]

The cap has always been an owner demand so they can drive contracts of top players down. From the perspective of the players they're under no obligation to fit themselves under a ceiling the owners imposed onto themselves, let alone when you consider their direction to impose a cap was the reason behind two lockouts.

Leagues with no caps also have revenue sharing; it's not a mutually exclusive feature.

No, the cap has been an owner demand to create a healthier league and to bring in more overall revenue meaning more money for players. Of course the NHLPA is going to fight it and use it as a negotiation tactic just like they did helmets and visors. All 3 of those things are good for the players as a whole.

With a 50/50 revenue split has given far more money to the players than no cap. More healthy franchises has lead to more money from more revenue streams.

 

[BLONG7]

Considered Auston has all the leverage why can’t he get 15 per? If the Leafs want him to sign a longer term than 3 years then the AAV is going to rise significantly. So, it’s either 13.5 x 3 or 15 x 5. The longer the term the higher the AAV will be.

Absolutely agree...........the leafs gave him the leverage.............I think a ton of this discussion has been about how he asks for more than better players? MacKinnon and McDavid are class of the league, and AM is a great player, but a fly on the wall when the agent asks for more than those two, would be an interesting discussion, regardless of how much the cap has moved......just my 2 cents, he does not deserve more than those two guys, but yes, he will get it...................just doesn't mean he should,

If they can't agree, then he becomes a UFA and Leaf Nation is going to implode....

No, the cap has been an owner demand to create a healthier league and to bring in more overall revenue meaning more money for players. Of course the NHLPA is going to fight it and use it as a negotiation tactic just like they did helmets and visors. All 3 of those things are good for the players as a whole.

With a 50/50 revenue split has given far more money to the players than no cap. More healthy franchises has lead to more money from more revenue streams.

As much as some may say, they don't like the hard cap, it has done, exactly what Bettman said it would do...........benefits both sides, which makes perfect sense.

Look at MLB and the Mets this year, had, a 360M payroll!! LOL..............and they are not even a 500 team, and are now selling off players!!
LOL......................................

 

[Legion34]

1) You missed the point, maybe intentionally. Lou generally builds from the net out (hence why his other two teams NJD / NYI have had elite goalies, defensive D and generally outperform in the playoffs). Paying your 1C ~11m when you have cap space is completely different than paying the same amount for the same player to be your 2C when you don't have cap space.

Especially if your capped out team doesn't have a 1D or an elite starting goalie. Lou's long time starting goalies have been Brodeur and Sorokin, in Toronto he started with... Bernier and Reimer and Sparks?

I think everyone, including you, knows that as a Leaf Lou would've spent that cap space either trying to fix his goaltending / defense, like he tried to do when he signed Freddie a year or two before. With that Leafs roster in 2018, if he'd given up on Freddie by that point he would've tried to get / develop a better goalie like Brodeur / Sorokin, or if he believed in Freddie he would've tried to get / develop true shutdown defensemen like Adam Pelech, Stevens, etc before even considering upgrading at 2C. Everybody knows that's how he does things.

***

2) Compared to Dubas, yes Lou is a much better negotiator. Everyone, including you, knows this as well.

To your Engvall example, at 3m AAV he's more than fine, that's a bottom six player who will get you 30-40 points a year while playing 13-15 mins a night and not hurting you defensively. Sure, 2-2.5m would've been a better AAV, but that's exactly the type of depth the Leafs need / can't afford long term given their cap situation.

Have fun continuing your bad faith posts. At least you've moved on from pretending that playoff performance has no bearing on contracts, I guess that is something

1.) your argument is that lou. Who had the opportunity to bid on the player in Long Island and offered more money. And was so mad he lost out he petitioned to get a rule changed Would not have taken the player? Because….. you say so?

Lou who built from the net out (had Freddie) and had 2 years to fix the D and chose to add free agents like marleau and rental centres plekanec and Boyle

Would not have taken the best C maybe ever in ufa since the lockout?

I mean sure. You can feel free to be as wrong as you like I guess. The idea that lou did anything positive to the leafs defence in 3 years is laughable. Heck dubas did more to Torontos defense than him.

2.) the absolute worst contracts in toronto were lou specials. He signed Zaitsev and marleau. He has a long history of bad contracts.

He was the first to demote a player to the AHL mogilny despite paying him 3.5 million after the lockout. He has had to get rid of isles players he signed. Defending a 7 year deal to engvall is nuts. Barzal at 9 for 60 pts is bad.

By his own admission. He signed Horvat for too much and too long.

He has built a terrible roster and doubled down on core that played trotz hockey incredibly well. Then he let trotz walk and missed the playoffs.


You are ignoring what we watched for 3 years. It is no where near what you are suggesting

 

[Funk21]

This thread title is confusing. There’s no “haggling” going on. Either Treliving agrees to Matthews’ contract demands or the player leaves July 1, 2024.

Then ask the player to waive and we will move on. I’d rather trade Matthews than be handcuffed by mediocrity because we again overpay him again.

It’s some point it’s better to move on and let him be somebody else’s problem or saviour. My guess he will likely be the other teams problem.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I really am curious what Matthew will get. If it is 13.5 let's say for 4 years.

I could see Nylander being a UFA rental and hit free agency because I am unsure if he can sign below 10 million after both of them hitting 40 goals.

If the Leafs keep both Mathews and Nylander, they need about $4M to retain both of them (on top of what they are paying them now). Domi and Klingberg = $7M.

Cap expected to grow and should be around $89/90M. That's another $5-6M.

Let Domi and Klingberg walk after this year and keep Bertuzzi?

When you add it all up, they end up $9M in space with pretty much the same roster but Brodie and Klinberg would have to be replaced. Tight but doable.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Whatever the figure is, hope they include a no mustache clause

 

[Habs Halifax]

Then ask the player to waive and we will move on. I’d rather trade Matthews than be handcuffed by mediocrity because we again overpay him again.

It’s some point it’s better to move on and let him be somebody else’s problem or saviour. My guess he will likely be the other teams problem.

What the Leafs need is for the cap to grow like it was expected to when they signed all of Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander. Covid really messed things up for teams like the Oilers and Leafs. Timing of when they had to pay their stars and what happened afterwards.

Cap is expected to grow again and look at what we have again... Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander need new contracts in 1-2 years.

5/6 years for Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. Would look so much better if they just got the 8 year terms. Now, any growth in the cap needs to be spend on retaining them. The timing is certainly working more for the players than the team... from what I see.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

People thought JT could be a 90-100 pt elite 1C who would be as good as Matthews

Dude didnt get that level depsite higher end talent. This year he was just way to invisible at EVS

We also expected a ppg player come playoffs.

Tavares has 22 pts in 31 playoff games or a 58 pt player lool.

Never understood why people assumed either of those things. Tavares' career high before going to the Leafs was 86 points during his peak, so why would he suddenly have another 10 to 15 points in him as he nears age 30? I said it literally at the time of signing that you'd maybe see a bump of 4 or 5 points at best, but he simply wasn't "dynamic" enough to be anywhere close to a 100 point guy.

As for the playoffs, why? He was a perennial choker for the Islanders. He literally had ONE good series (versus the Panthers) where he had like 5 goals and 9 points in 6 games. The rest of his Islander playoff career was exactly what you've seen from him as a Leaf.

Just seemed like a bunch of wishful thinking on Leaf fans behalf to believe the above stuff when he'd not shown he was capable of that prior to the signing.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

That’s insane and Treliving basically should push back and state 9.25-9.5 x 8 for Nylander and 13.5 x 8 with 90% paid in signing bonus is on the table for the next week. After that no dice.

Unfortunately, he can't because Matthews just has to say no and the Leafs are screwed. With a full NMC, he controls where they can trade him. So that kills off a significant amount of his value. And if they don't trade him, he walks for nothing.

Matthews and Marner have Treliving by the balls here. Which is likely why they're trying to strongarm Willy. He's the only one they can negotiate firmly with.

 

[PainForShane]

1.) your argument is that lou. Who had the opportunity to bid on the player in Long Island and offered more money. And was so mad he lost out he petitioned to get a rule changed Would not have taken the player? Because….. you say so?

Lou who built from the net out (had Freddie) and had 2 years to fix the D and chose to add free agents like marleau and rental centres plekanec and Boyle

Would not have taken the best C maybe ever in ufa since the lockout?

I mean sure. You can feel free to be as wrong as you like I guess. The idea that lou did anything positive to the leafs defence in 3 years is laughable. Heck dubas did more to Torontos defense than him.

2.) the absolute worst contracts in toronto were lou specials. He signed Zaitsev and marleau. He has a long history of bad contracts.

He was the first to demote a player to the AHL mogilny despite paying him 3.5 million after the lockout. He has had to get rid of isles players he signed. Defending a 7 year deal to engvall is nuts. Barzal at 9 for 60 pts is bad.

By his own admission. He signed Horvat for too much and too long.

He has built a terrible roster and doubled down on core that played trotz hockey incredibly well. Then he let trotz walk and missed the playoffs.


You are ignoring what we watched for 3 years. It is no where near what you are suggesting

Bro. You missed the point. Again. Despite quoting it, and also the top of the relevant paragraph saying "the point is." Not sure what your issue is with understanding words.

1) For the third time, the point is: In a cap world, there is a difference between a team with weak forwards (and cap space) offering ~11m to keep their best forward vs a team with good forwards (and no cap space) offering ~11m to acquire a forward who's likely going to be their third best, maybe even fourth best up front.

These two things are not the same, and therefore not even close to comparable. Even if the player we're talking about is exactly the same player.

Lmk if you continue to have trouble understanding the point. It's a pretty obvious statement and should not be this difficult for anyone to understand. Especially after being repeated 3 separate times with disclaimers saying, "the point is."

***

2) Re: Lou, he was with the Leafs for three years, which is not much time for a GM. Given Lou's track record in NJ and NYI, it's apparent he builds from the net out, and given more time, his track record strongly suggests he would've done the same thing in Toronto.

No one has said (and no one believes) that he actually fixed the D during his time in TOR, and yes, like you said it is laughable to suggest he "did anything positive" to fix the D while he was there. No one has said that, but glad you are laughing. Also, like you said he gave out some bad deals with Marleau and Zaitsev (imo the Marleau deal was truly terrible). But, given more time, his next priority would've been to fix the D. Because that is exactly how he built his teams in NJ and now NYI.

So why would he not have built the Leafs the same way (ie D and G first). Because...... you say so? Please.

***

Lastly, you're being misleading yet again. Isles missed the playoffs for the first time in a few years in 2022, after that Trotz left the team. Isles then made the playoffs last year with first year NHL coach Lane Lambert and took the Hurricanes to 6 games. It seems like you are implying Isles' style of play only works because of Trotz, that is not true.

***

Going forward, I honestly think you are / have been arguing / saying stuff in bad faith, and at this point I am having trouble taking anything you say seriously. Take that for what you will

 

[jfhabs]

From February of this year, while he was going through probably his least impressive season statistically:

McDavid, then who? Players, coaches, execs vote for NHL's top centers

The Oilers captain is a clear-cut No. 1 -- and then the debates begin. Here are the top 10 pivots in the league right now.

www.espn.com

Of course this poll was limited to centers, but it's hard to argue that the #2 center as voted by NHL execs/players is not in the top 10 overall.

But I do agree that $13.5M is steep. If a longer term, fine as it's certain that salaries for top players are going to eclipse that number within a few years. But on a 4 or less year term, not a great number.

I'd take Mackinnon, Draisaitl and Crosby over Matthews, in terms of "now" performance.
Now we don't account for wingers, defenseman and goalies. I'd take Makar, Josi & Hedman without thinking twice. Matthew Tkachuk, David Pastrnak, Kucherov.

He had an incredible 60g season, but he's a pure goal scorer. He doesn't dictate the pace of the game like others have. He's been better defensively and all, but he's not on the same level as some of the guys ahead imo. To me he's a Stamkos more then a Crosby tier player.

 

[Fatass]

Then ask the player to waive and we will move on. I’d rather trade Matthews than be handcuffed by mediocrity because we again overpay him again.

It’s some point it’s better to move on and let him be somebody else’s problem or saviour. My guess he will likely be the other teams problem.

Why would Matthews give up his leverage and waive? He gets to July 1, 2024 as a UFA and the bidding for him will be crazy. Some GM will pay him 15 x 3.

 

[Funk21]

What the Leafs need is for the cap to grow like it was expected to when they signed all of Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander. Covid really messed things up for teams like the Oilers and Leafs. Timing of when they had to pay their stars and what happened afterwards.

Cap is expected to grow again and look at what we have again... Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander need new contracts in 1-2 years.

5/6 years for Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. Would look so much better if they just got the 8 year terms. Now, any growth in the cap needs to be spend on retaining them. The timing is certainly working more for the players than the team... from what I see.

Is AM worth 13.5 or more?

No regardless if it a 3/5 or 8 year deal

Is Nylander worth 10 million per?

No, again I don’t think he is worth more than Aho or Thachuk

It doesn’t matter if the cap is going up. Nylander was fairly paid for his previous contract. AM was overpaid based on production. Marner was overpaid as well. These players need to understand that there is new management and we are not going to overpay our stars like Dubas did. Most teams don’t provide 90%+ in signing bonus to reduce player taxes and usually pay most in the first three years. Present value of cash worth more than Future Value.

There is no guarantee the cap is going up, their pay is guaranteed. What if COVID 2024 happens, what then? (God I hope not) but could very well screw things up again and we are back where we started. Look I get your argument but the cap going up is not a guarantee. If these player are strong arming this organization and GM then they should put in a claus that reduces their pay if the cap doesn’t go up based on their projections……sound familiar-escrow my friends and no player likes that but they all want there full pay even if HHR is lower than expected.

Stop defending these spoiled brats. I’m all for every player getting theirs but if you want to win in professional sports under a hard cap system some sacrifices need to be made to give your team the opportunity to win. I’m not asking them to sign for 5 million per but allow yourself to get paid and the next man so we can have the shot at a champion. How many times did Brady restructure his contract to have the players around him?

 

[Legion34]

Bro. You missed the point. Again. Despite quoting it, and also the top of the relevant paragraph saying "the point is." Not sure what your issue is with understanding words.

1) For the third time, the point is: In a cap world, there is a difference between a team with weak forwards (and cap space) offering ~11m to keep their best forward vs a team with good forwards (and no cap space) offering ~11m to acquire a forward who's likely going to be their third best, maybe even fourth best up front.

These two things are not the same, and therefore not even close to comparable. Even if the player we're talking about is exactly the same player.

Lmk if you continue to have trouble understanding the point. It's a pretty obvious statement and should not be this difficult for anyone to understand. Especially after being repeated 3 separate times with disclaimers saying, "the point is."

***

2) Re: Lou, he was with the Leafs for three years, which is not much time for a GM. Given Lou's track record in NJ and NYI, it's apparent he builds from the net out, and given more time, his track record strongly suggests he would've done the same thing in Toronto.

No one has said (and no one believes) that he actually fixed the D during his time in TOR, and yes, like you said it is laughable to suggest he "did anything positive" to fix the D while he was there. No one has said that, but glad you are laughing. Also, like you said he gave out some bad deals with Marleau and Zaitsev (imo the Marleau deal was truly terrible). But, given more time, his next priority would've been to fix the D. Because that is exactly how he built his teams in NJ and now NYI.

So why would he not have built the Leafs the same way (ie D and G first). Because...... you say so? Please.

***

Lastly, you're being misleading yet again. Isles missed the playoffs for the first time in a few years in 2022, after that Trotz left the team. Isles then made the playoffs last year with first year NHL coach Lane Lambert and took the Hurricanes to 6 games. It seems like you are implying Isles' style of play only works because of Trotz, that is not true.

***

Going forward, I honestly think you are / have been arguing / saying stuff in bad faith, and at this point I am having trouble taking anything you say seriously. Take that for what you will

This is pretty simple.

The Point is. That you have developed some alternative universe in your head that lou would have not signed a player in Toronto, based on his time in NJ and NYI, which completely ignores his time in Toronto.

We know lou was the gm for 3 years. That is plenty of time to get different defence. Lots of GMs do it.

Heck look at dubas. He got muzzin, Brodie pretty quick.
Burke got komisarek/Beauchamin/phaneuf. Not saying these were the right moves. But clearly they were priorities.

Lou had 3 years. He chose to spend all his time on forwards not defence. There is no evidence to suggest in his time in Toronto that he would have went for defence…. If he put d as a priority. He probably would have done something about it.

Bottom line is you are proposing a hypothetical narrative on what lou would have done and what he would have signed people for…… we know he has a brutal track record of signings and he tried to sign that player for more money than dubas

You are just speculating on things that you want to believe.
Lou had a full year to get nylander signed. Why didn’t he do it if he could get him signed for less

1.) if lou didn’t want Tavares. Why would he try to sign him? If he didn’t think Tavares was worth that why offer more.
2.) if lou was prioritizing defence. Why didn’t he… prioritize defense?
3.) if lou is so good at getting contracts done. Why overpay marleau and zaitsev. Why not sign nylander?

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

No update, seems odd it hasn't been announced if it's one of three options: 3, 4 or 5 years?