Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[authentic]

Tavares contract was fine but leadership choices are terrible. Shy Tavares. Kid Marner, and quiet Rielly. Who would follow these guys leads? Marner looks and acts 14 (dancing, singing, complaining about mean kids on social media, racing Bunting and making kids noices, top hats). Tavares seems to have a social anxiety disorder. Keefe as a coach is ridiculous too... Anyone watch his practice interview? He was rambling on and on.., I'm surprised he didn't tell us what color of underwear he's wearing.

It would be shocking if this bunch had a sniff at the Stanley Cup. Their history of failures, soft play and weak personalities are not what traditional sports championship teams look like.

Lol are you sure you're not the one rambling on here? Tavares most definitely does not have a social anxiety disorder

Marner sings and dances? Damn, he'll be stuck in the 1st round forever

 

[Lemontree]

If we win the cup this year, is Dubas still a moron? Asking for a friend.

Are you asking that if someone actually does something than they are allowed to received credit? Yes, its getting credit and praise for accomplishing nothing is the strange part.

 

[hullsy47]

a core that includes 2 former 1st overall picks, 2 former 4th overall picks and 1 8th overall pick. It would be stupid to give up on that core. My only feedback would be, if there was a time for a change, he should have made a significant change after the MTL series. I personally would have fired Keefe. Someone should have been held accountable for the 3-1 collapse.

I agree with all those points, he has done those things, and they're all good things, including the hiring of the coach. He's learned on the job and this year has finally given Keefe the tools he needs to succeed. His job was complete after the TDL and it was generally agreed that he had done a very good job. Since then, it's been up to Keefe to put it all together and put the right lines together, the right players on the ice, prepare the team by making sure all the little details that lead to winning are practiced.

Dubas has created a first class organization on and off the ice that is admired by the players, former players, executives, media, etc. This is no longer the gong show that Ballard took delight putting on display. The results on the ice have been there during the season. I don't know what else he can do. I'm sure he would love a top 5 goalie, an effective 2LW, another top 4 defender. But in a cap world they aren't easy to acquire. Sure, he tied his wagon to the core 4, but it's not his fault the wheels fall off every April. A combination of their play, covid, bad luck, bizarre ref decisions at inopportune times, have conspired to ruin what could have been a very good run by this GM.

EXACTLY .its been poinyed out there are at least 20 good coaches as good or better than keefe
i foe 1 wanted cassidy

 

[Antropovsky]

closer to the soo too. hope he takes keefe with him.

Dubas did a presentation on analytics at a university, that was shared on youtube. He said its essential for the coach and gm to work together. Keefe is his puppet. I'm sure if it's not Keefe, then the next coach he picks will be inexperienced and one he feels he can control.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Rossi: Why would Kyle Dubas leave Toronto for Pittsburgh?

It all comes down to how badly Kyle Dubas wants one thing the Penguins can offer that's proven elusive with the Maple Leafs.

theathletic.com

Anyone with a competitive side should jump at the opportunity to give those two players at least one more good shot at a fourth title together. The job is difficult but desirable.

Does Dubas want it?

FSG would offer him whatever he wants — and not just money and power.

The Penguins are part of an FSG sports portfolio that also includes the Red Sox, Liverpool Football Club and RFK Racing. Dubas, long reported to see hockey and soccer as different sides of the same coin, is said to cherish an opportunity to learn from teams and leagues outside the NHL. He can do that now with Maple Leafs Sports & Entertainment, which owns the Maple Leafs, Raptors and Toronto Football Club. FSG, though, is a global sports entity.

Perhaps most importantly, FSG could offer control.

Two sources familiar with the Penguins’ ongoing search told The Athletic that FSG would give Dubas full power with the Penguins. He wouldn’t be a GM reporting to Brendan Shanahan, as is the case with the Maple Leafs. Rather, in Pittsburgh, Dubas would be GM with the influence of a president of hockey operations, even if that’s not his title.

The Penguins would be Dubas’ team, with one caveat — Crosby, Malkin and Letang must remain the faces of Penguins hockey.

FSG is wedded to those three. Henry and Werner view them favorably as much for their on-ice contributions as their off-ice value. Three of the most beloved athletes in Pittsburgh’s history, Crosby, Malkin and Letang are seen as long-term ambassadors for the Penguins’ brand. Their popularity matters a lot.

Ticket-buyers want to see them. Sponsors want to be associated with them. TV viewers are drawn to them.

Beeston said FSG plans to build “a hockey operations machine” to rise from the ashes of the Hextall-Burke failures. That means financial investment for a bigger analytics department, multiple assistant GMs, a deeper pool of scouts, and probably a few newly-created positions.

Somebody is going to oversee those hires. Somebody is going to build the infrastructure. Somebody is going to inherit a couple of generational centers, an all-time defenseman and, yes, a two-time Cup winner of a coach who has a lengthy commitment from ownership in Mike Sullivan.

Nobody will be stuck with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Sullivan. Having those pieces in place is a perk of the gig.

Dubas is the perfect choice to be the Penguins’ somebody.

 

[Lemontree]

I agree with all those points, he has done those things, and they're all good things, including the hiring of the coach. He's learned on the job and this year has finally given Keefe the tools he needs to succeed. His job was complete after the TDL and it was generally agreed that he had done a very good job. Since then, it's been up to Keefe to put it all together and put the right lines together, the right players on the ice, prepare the team by making sure all the little details that lead to winning are practiced.

Dubas has created a first class organization on and off the ice that is admired by the players, former players, executives, media, etc. This is no longer the gong show that Ballard took delight putting on display. The results on the ice have been there during the season. I don't know what else he can do. I'm sure he would love a top 5 goalie, an effective 2LW, another top 4 defender. But in a cap world they aren't easy to acquire. Sure, he tied his wagon to the core 4, but it's not his fault the wheels fall off every April. A combination of their play, covid, bad luck, bizarre ref decisions at inopportune times, have conspired to ruin what could have been a very good run by this GM.

What? Ballard died in 1990. In between that time you are referencing, there were very good Maple Leafs teams that actually won playoff rounds. The early 2000s Leafs teams were much better and accomplished than the current group.

 

[Antropovsky]

Lol are you sure you're not the one rambling on here? Tavares most definitely does not have a social anxiety disorder

Marner sings and dances? Damn, he'll be stuck in the 1st round forever

Have you played on sports teams? Can you think of any championship sports leaders who act as childish as immature as he does? He doesn't have the confidence of a leader, watch his interviews. Management baby him!

Keefe has made multiple references to the leaders not leading with their voices. Shanahan said the team has no killer instinct. If you don't believe me, maybe believe the people closer to the team?

Look at past Stanley cup winning teams, they all have strong serious leaders.

Lol are you sure you're not the one rambling on here? Tavares most definitely does not have a social anxiety disorder

Marner sings and dances? Damn, he'll be stuck in the 1st round forever

Can you name other leaders who sing, dance on camera, race teammates making child noises, complain about social media meanies, dads complain about them not being captain, he made a childish joke under his breath about needing to go win a car at the all star game when he was leaving after being part of the press conference announcing Toronto as host of the next all star game. Management has all but admitted he's sensitive and gets in his own head.

A couple of these...sure, but overall the big picture is he isn't mature enough to have a letter. Especially when you combine his inability to produce in big games and his lack of grit.

 

[Egghead1999]

Dubas did a presentation on analytics at a university, that was shared on youtube. He said its essential for the coach and gm to work together. Keefe is his puppet. I'm sure if it's not Keefe, then the next coach he picks will be inexperienced and one he feels he can control.

Cannot imagine Dubas can pick another coach in NHL if leafs is out in the 1st round.
His problem is that he can only view the big picture but not in the detail. When your star forwards cannot play the heavy game, no matter how many "meat and potatoes" players he added in the front will not change the team's fortune.

 

[Antropovsky]

Cannot imagine Dubas can pick another coach in NHL if leafs is out in the 1st round.
His problem is that he can only view the big picture but not in the detail. When your star forwards cannot play the heavy game, no matter how many "meat and potatoes" players he added in the front will not change the team's fortune.

Adding them at the deadline wasn't wise either. Team is playing a non physical style for majority of the season and then he completely shakes the team up specifically targeting grit. No wonder this team looks so disoriented and confused. Just from a fans perspective it was shocking how this teams physical play changed after the deadline.

Finally the fact we keep bringing in old ex captains and seemingly slap imaginary letters on their chests. Management coddles Marner, Tavares and Matthews too much. Throw some expectations on them. They are getting paid to do it! Nope, Keefe praised Marner and Matthews for last game but called out his 1.5 million dollar backup goalie and his 3 million dollar bottom 6. Oh he also praised Oreilly for being a leader and talking all game! Hey Keefe... What about your actual captains, how much chatter were they doing?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Rossi: Why would Kyle Dubas leave Toronto for Pittsburgh?

It all comes down to how badly Kyle Dubas wants one thing the Penguins can offer that's proven elusive with the Maple Leafs.

theathletic.com

Anyone with a competitive side should jump at the opportunity to give those two players at least one more good shot at a fourth title together. The job is difficult but desirable.

Does Dubas want it?

FSG would offer him whatever he wants — and not just money and power.

The Penguins are part of an FSG sports portfolio that also includes the Red Sox, Liverpool Football Club and RFK Racing. Dubas, long reported to see hockey and soccer as different sides of the same coin, is said to cherish an opportunity to learn from teams and leagues outside the NHL. He can do that now with Maple Leafs Sports & Entertainment, which owns the Maple Leafs, Raptors and Toronto Football Club. FSG, though, is a global sports entity.

Perhaps most importantly, FSG could offer control.

Two sources familiar with the Penguins’ ongoing search told The Athletic that FSG would give Dubas full power with the Penguins. He wouldn’t be a GM reporting to Brendan Shanahan, as is the case with the Maple Leafs. Rather, in Pittsburgh, Dubas would be GM with the influence of a president of hockey operations, even if that’s not his title.

The Penguins would be Dubas’ team, with one caveat — Crosby, Malkin and Letang must remain the faces of Penguins hockey.

FSG is wedded to those three. Henry and Werner view them favorably as much for their on-ice contributions as their off-ice value. Three of the most beloved athletes in Pittsburgh’s history, Crosby, Malkin and Letang are seen as long-term ambassadors for the Penguins’ brand. Their popularity matters a lot.

Ticket-buyers want to see them. Sponsors want to be associated with them. TV viewers are drawn to them.

Beeston said FSG plans to build “a hockey operations machine” to rise from the ashes of the Hextall-Burke failures. That means financial investment for a bigger analytics department, multiple assistant GMs, a deeper pool of scouts, and probably a few newly-created positions.

Somebody is going to oversee those hires. Somebody is going to build the infrastructure. Somebody is going to inherit a couple of generational centers, an all-time defenseman and, yes, a two-time Cup winner of a coach who has a lengthy commitment from ownership in Mike Sullivan.

Nobody will be stuck with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Sullivan. Having those pieces in place is a perk of the gig.

Dubas is the perfect choice to be the Penguins’ somebody.

Yeah I think Dubas would be a great fit for the Penguins. Get it done.

 

[Antropovsky]

Yeah I think Dubas would be a great fit for the Penguins. Get it done.

Agreed...csn someone on Twitter ask these writers what Dubas has done that makes him so desirable?

 

[Leafidelity]

Always funny to see people assume that only someone with a letter on their jersey will lead in a dressing room. Its a very outside looking in take. In reality, there are a lot of guys in a room speaking and guys like ROR and Gio being in the room mean just as much with or without a silly letter on their jersey.

ROR basically said as much last week when they tried to give him a temporary letter and he turned it down, not seeing a need. Only fans and media care about that stuff.

 

[Antropovsky]

Well they gave Tavares the captain, but then every year they tried to undermine his leadership by acquiring Marleau & Spezza to supplement the leadership roles?

Marleau came first... But point taken... Gio, Spezza, Thornton, oreilly etc came after.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes bc it will be bc of player X having a historic playoffs performance or goalie X playing lights out. Lol

So if we win, players get the credit and if we lose, Dubas gets the blame. Cool.

I agree, it's not black and white. However, the expectation of this GM was to build on what was left to him and make a team that was a serious Stanley Cup contender. For all of the good things he seems to have done, whatever the reasons, he has failed to meet those expectations for 4 seasons in a row.

Unless we're a contender now? 4th best odds to win the cup I believe before the playoffs started, some might say that's a contender.

Are you asking that if someone actually does something than they are allowed to received credit? Yes, its getting credit and praise for accomplishing nothing is the strange part.

I'm more a grey area guy myself.

 

[theTTC]

Dubas has accomplished nothing. The team he assembled has won nothing. His philosphy of soft water-bug 3rd and 4th liners has proven to be totally flawed. The Core Fore philosphy has bombed. His multi-million dollar desperation signing of Matt Murray was insane. His hand-picked coach sucks up and answers to the Core Fore, not the other way 'round. I am surmising that it's only because of Jason Spezza's presence/insistence/good favour with Leaf ownership that finally the O'Reillys of the worlds are being brought in.

I'm not cherry picking flaws here. This is all critical stuff. Why would any ownership group want this guy?

 

[AndyWozniewski]

Not sure how to respond to that.....how is a gm who inheritated a 105 pt team with the high end talent that came with it and who has never made it past the first round great? Seems like a pretty low bar you got there.

He surrounds the core with good pieces every year and they still fail. They have also failed under 2 different coaches/styles. Firing the GM isn't gonna change jack shit if you keep the same core.

 

[Antropovsky]

I agree with all those points, he has done those things, and they're all good things, including the hiring of the coach. He's learned on the job and this year has finally given Keefe the tools he needs to succeed. His job was complete after the TDL and it was generally agreed that he had done a very good job. Since then, it's been up to Keefe to put it all together and put the right lines together, the right players on the ice, prepare the team by making sure all the little details that lead to winning are practiced.

Dubas has created a first class organization on and off the ice that is admired by the players, former players, executives, media, etc. This is no longer the gong show that Ballard took delight putting on display. The results on the ice have been there during the season. I don't know what else he can do. I'm sure he would love a top 5 goalie, an effective 2LW, another top 4 defender. But in a cap world they aren't easy to acquire. Sure, he tied his wagon to the core 4, but it's not his fault the wheels fall off every April. A combination of their play, covid, bad luck, bizarre ref decisions at inopportune times, have conspired to ruin what could have been a very good run by this GM.

Babs, Lou and Shanahan built this core, and had reestablished respect for Toronto. The three had a very strong presence.

Dubas has put Toronto into no mans land again.

We are once again the butt end of jokes in the league, and get little respect.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Dubas did a presentation on analytics at a university, that was shared on youtube. He said its essential for the coach and gm to work together. Keefe is his puppet. I'm sure if it's not Keefe, then the next coach he picks will be inexperienced and one he feels he can control.

Was it this one?

Competitive Advantage talk from the 9th MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, February 27-28, 2015, Boston, MA

A look at how educating and learning about different ways to analyze the game using quantitative measures have changed the way you can look at the game of ice hockey. Notably, how learning and advancing knowledge of hockey analytics can aid in eliminating the impact of cognitive biases on personnel decisions of all sorts. And finally, a look at what we are truly trying to accomplish by incorporating analytics into our organizations at this time.

 

[kevsh]

Sure, he tied his wagon to the core 4, but it's not his fault the wheels fall off every April.

No it is on him precisely because he tied his wagon to a core whose wheels fall off every April and has refused to accept or acknowledge that.

Instead for 3 straight Summers he's basically decided that "they'll figure it out" and the only thing he has to do is to re-tool the bottom 6 and replace whatever goalie has left town.

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas did a presentation on analytics at a university, that was shared on youtube. He said its essential for the coach and gm to work together. Keefe is his puppet. I'm sure if it's not Keefe, then the next coach he picks will be inexperienced and one he feels he can control.

You won't find a single GM in the league who would disagree with this statement .

There's legitimate criticisms of Keefe - working in a cooperative way with the rest of the front office isn't one of them

 

[egd27]

Unless we're a contender now? 4th best odds to win the cup I believe before the playoffs started, some might say that's a contender.

Guess it depends on how you define a contender, on paper or on the ice when the games are their most intense.

We know they are great on paper.

 

[Antropovsky]

Was it this one?

Competitive Advantage talk from the 9th MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, February 27-28, 2015, Boston, MA

A look at how educating and learning about different ways to analyze the game using quantitative measures have changed the way you can look at the game of ice hockey. Notably, how learning and advancing knowledge of hockey analytics can aid in eliminating the impact of cognitive biases on personnel decisions of all sorts. And finally, a look at what we are truly trying to accomplish by incorporating analytics into our organizations at this time.

Yeah at 635 he talks about needing buy in from everyone in his management on using analytics and specifically talks but his coaching change in SOO and how analytics positively changed once Keefe was hired.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Guess it depends on how you define a contender, on paper or on the ice when the games are their most intense.

We know they are great on paper.

They've been steadily great on the ice too, they just underperform in the playoffs for some reason. But nothing lasts forever, and I still think they can win the cup this year. I just looked up the definition of contender and it's pretty meaningless in this context TBH. For myself, I think the bookmakers get it right most of the time and that's probably a good place to start. They seemed to think that only BOS and COL have significantly better chances to win than the Leafs, looks about right to me. And of EDM slightly ahead of us and a bunch of teams right behind us, that looks about right to me also. So sure, I'll say the Leafs are a contender and they have been for several years now.

 

[egd27]

They've been steadily great on the ice too, they just underperform in the playoffs for some reason. But nothing lasts forever, and I still think they can win the cup this year. I just looked up the definition of contender and it's pretty meaningless in this context TBH. For myself, I think the bookmakers get it right most of the time and that's probably a good place to start. They seemed to think that only BOS and COL have significantly better chances to win than the Leafs, looks about right to me. And of EDM slightly ahead of us and a bunch of teams right behind us, that looks about right to me also. So sure, I'll say the Leafs are a contender and they have been for several years now.

They've certainly made a good chunk of coin by making the the Leafs a betting favourite while never coming close to having to pay out.

 

[Primary Assist]

So if the Leafs lose this round of course I want Dubie gone. But he does have a lot to offer a new team. He's built some awesome regular season teams, and you have to assume there's some mistakes he made early on his career due to inexperience he would like to change. Going to Pittsburgh would be a fresh start, and Dube could be at the helm for a total rebuild leading up to Crosby/Malkin/Letang retiring.

But of course I want the Leafs to win this round, win the Cup, and for Dubie to be here and build many more winning teams