Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[mikeyz]

He's headed to Pittsburgh apparently, le rumor du jour...

Pittsburgh is going to immediately regret this.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't hang out there but I browse sometimes. They seem very herd like in their opinions. Probably due to the dislike button

the cancel culture is rampant on reddit. ideas, values and common sense cannot be discussed there. Anything on reddit should be taken with a grain of salt. Even the journalists that do AMA there they just play to the crowd.

 

[RoadWarrior]

12 years as a hockey team general manager at three different levels and he has only ever hired 1 coach, Sheldon Keefe!

Nhl general manager for 5 years, and the only goalies he's acquired are both from SOO (Campbell, Murray). His first round pick (Sandin), from SOO. Trades he's made (Muzzin SOO), (Timmins SOO), Bunting (SOO).....

His gameplan pretty much has been, keep the same core he inherited, sign the Toronto boys who want to come home (Brodie, Tavares, Gio, Spezza, Simmonds, Thornton) and thus require no work, hire SOO coach, acquire SOO players, and continually change his bottom six.

His work has been overall pretty lackluster.

This will definitely be his last days on Toronto if we lose to Tampa. The core he lavishly treated don't seem motivated to help him either.

Bingo.

His bizarre obsession with Soo players, players from the GTA on retirement contracts and overpayment of 3 of the core 4 players thus tying his hands for other moves are primary reasons why he isn’t coming back.

 

[PromisedLand]

reading posts here....

Do people care more about TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS or Dubas? There are 33 teams in the league; of which 16 teams qualify for the playoffs and 8 teams make the 2nd round every freakin' year.

Leafs are going to be fine with or without dubas.

In a competent organization, accountability matters. Period!

As a Leafs fan and Sens hater, I strongly approve of this idea. He inherited then deeply f***ed up an amazing young Leafs core, I’m confident he could do the same with Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris, Pinto, Chabot, Sanderson, etc.

Sadly all their young guys have signed long term contracts at a reasonable cap hit

 

[PromisedLand]

He's headed to Pittsburgh apparently, le rumor du jour...

Pens aren't teh same as Toronto when he became the GM with young superstars, plenty of capspace and picks/prospects of which not much remain

going to pens to be a GM is a different ball game. They have aging stars; not a lot of cap space and not a lot of picks/prospects

I would argue it was way too easy to be a GM in Toronto and given the leeway he was/is given because franchise was rebuilding and there was a lot of capspace/prospects/picks with a team on the rise.

You think Leafs fans are ticked? Pens fans and ownership are even more cutthroat. They just canned Burke and co. only after 2 years

 

[AndyWozniewski]

Kyle Dubas is a great GM. Every year he adds good pieces to improve the team and finds low cap hit players that can contribute (e.g. Jarnkrok, Bunting). He was even willing to adapt and include more grit in the lineup when he saw his philosophy of pure skill wasn't working. He's not set in his ways and can adapt and admit when things aren't working. The only thing he's been stubborn about is keeping the same core together.

If we lose in the first round again, I would keep him on only if he's willing to change up the core. This same group of guys have failed 3 times under Babcock and 3 times under Keefe. After a certain point, you have to blame the players and make big changes. If he refuses to trade away core guys, then he can leave too.

 

[Polaris1010]

A lot of fans have been turned off. More will be turned off with no playoff success and organization being status-quo. People will find other hobbies/places to spend their time/money.

It will go down as one of the worst rebuilds ever. They squandered a golden opportunity completely and the only thing that cements that failure is 3 more L's.

I hope we win this year. Not so confident of our chances next season.

Yeah, I agree. I have watched very few games in these years since they fired Babcock. That was the end for me, at least for now.

What did Babcock do?

The team was a joke, no talent, only Kadri and Uncle Leo, who made the All Star team that year. Then the kids came in, and coach Babcock said he did not believe the kids could have been so good, and that year they lost to a Washington team in 6 games in round 1, a Washington team. Next two years came up short again losing to Boston in the first round.

Under Dubas and Keefe, they lose to Columbus a team below .500 to get booted from the playoffs in that pandemic year. Then they lose to Montreal of all teams, who were worst than Columbus! Then last year, came up short against a championship caliber team. This year, after game one, it could be another embarrassment like losing to Columbus or Montreal.

The record is so clear.

Babcock teams were at least respectable in the playoffs. Every single time.

Dubas and Keefe, last year was respectable, the other two years were embarrassments, and this year looking like the team that lost to Columbus or Montreal.

Babcock, tank years, and three respectable playoffs where they came up short.

Dubas and Keefe, at least two embarrassments and working on a third, with only one respectable playoffs performance.

I like talking with you guys, because you know hockey.

People who say Dubas is worthy, do not know hockey.

Build a team, or inherit a team, to be embarrassed in the playoffs?

At this point, got to really wonder how Dubas and Keefe managed to have the Leafs take the Lightning to seven games last year. Seems like a fluke. Losing to Columbus and Montreal, and game one this year, that seems normal.

Will they finally fired all of them including Shanahan?

Who knows.

 

[centipede2233]

Dubas inherited an NHL team rich in cap space, high level players on ELC, and picks galore. He basically through all that away except the high level young players he needed to say “we can and we will” and overpay on 5/6 yr deals (at the time). His obsession with SOO players is concerning and he should see someone about this addiction. Try smoking patches, try AA meetings, Do a Jenny craig program for all I care, but this addiction seems like it’ll cost him his job as GM of the Maple leafs. Good riddance!

 

[Hellcat]

Rogers / Bell / Shanny / LarryT / Dubas / Keefe all have one thing in common. Incompetence at running an NHL hockey club. With the embarrassment of riches we have, the playoff success rate is a joke.

Basically Bell / Rogers / MLSE are all on corporate welfare. Bell and Rogers care of CRTC and MLSE based on voluntary unwavering support of the most loyal fans in sports. They can do what they want because no matter the results, they will be bailed out.

Corporate welfare is not the right terminology, Bell and Rogers are both financially independent from the federal government. Their is no risk of needing a corporate bailout and they can't do what ever they want, there is government oversight and it's tends to be a butting heads relationship. They are federally regulated by the CRTC but besides that overwatch and an acrimonious relationship with the Federal government, that is the only link to the Fed's.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas inherited an NHL team rich in cap space, high level players on ELC, and picks galore.

More accurately, he inherited an NHL team coming off a season that was built on unsustainable things, that already had the highest cap expenditure in the league, with multiple immediately departing players, multiple players that would rapidly deteriorate in quality and health, cap anchors, high level players that had been mistreated coming off their ELCs and about to eat up tens of millions more in cap space, a depleted prospect pool, no extra picks, a toxic coach, and an impending, unforeseen global pandemic that for the first time in NHL history, would stagnate the cap for multiple years, and despite all that, he has still been able to improve the team and pretty much every aspect of the organization considerably.

 

[thewave]

Corporate welfare is not the right terminology, Bell and Rogers are both financially independent from the federal government. Their is no risk of needing a corporate bailout and they can't do what ever they want, there is government oversight and it's tends to be a butting heads relationship. They are federally regulated by the CRTC but besides that overwatch and an acrimonious relationship with the Federal government, that is the only link to the Fed's.

That's fair to say but I maintain that the CRTC has enabled the two to maintain essentially a monopoly in communications. They do indeed get a lot of grants for projects like rural internet initiatives etc. It's not direct bailouts or corporate welfare though, like Bombardier for example.

 

[TheBigThree]

Dubas is garbage. Thank you needed to let it out.

Goodbye.

 

[Lemontree]

I honestly don't get the Keefe hate sorry. I don't.

So, let me see if I can follow some of the logic that seems to be being applied (not necessary directed at you but the posting base on this form):

Dubas - has done a good/great job and needs to be extended.
Roster/Players - The poster base believe the above therefore the players/roster construction is not the issue. If it was the issue than it would have to fall on Dubas.
Keefe - By default doesn't Keefe have to be the issue if the logic is that Dubas did an awesome job constructing the roster and this team still seemingly no where near contender status.

Dubas was named the GM on May 11th, 2018. He has had 5 years to construct the roster exactly the way he wants. This is HIS roster and this is HIS coach. The recent failure of this organization rests squarely on Dubas and Shanahan. There needs to be sweeping changes this off-season unless this team wins at least 2 rounds. YES, they need to beat both TBay and Boston (assuming Bruins advance past Panthers) for any of the Management staff and coaching staff to survive. Its about damn time there is some accountability with this organization.

 

[Lemontree]

reading posts here....

Do people care more about TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS or Dubas? There are 33 teams in the league; of which 16 teams qualify for the playoffs and 8 teams make the 2nd round every freakin' year.

Leafs are going to be fine with or without dubas.

In a competent organization, accountability matters. Period!



Sadly all their young guys have signed long term contracts at a reasonable cap hit

The cult like obsession around this guy is unbelievable at times. Only thing I can think off is they think he is "an everyday guy" and if he can be successful it means that any random guy can be and maybe they get lost in their day dreams of a NHL randomly calling them up and offering a management job.

I would like to state that I don't believe you need to be a genius or even all that intelligent to be a sports executive, I think there are intelligent fans who understand the game and understand what they are watching that could easily do a better job than some the notoriously bad historical GMs (looking at you Mike Milbury and Garth Snow).

Dubas and Chayka (that moron that Arizona hired) were heralded as the next wave of hockey executives, fresh faced and so intelligent that they would change the game and how managing has been done previously. Chayka was exposed quickly as a know nothing kid who apparently was smooth talking enough to wow a few key board members into getting a GM job. Dubas has stuck around longer but it seems he is cut from the same cloth.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

accountability

What this word mean? Never heard before

 

[ACC1224]

The cult like obsession around this guy is unbelievable at times. Only thing I can think off is they think he is "an everyday guy" and if he can be successful it means that any random guy can be and maybe they get lost in their day dreams of a NHL randomly calling them up and offering a management job.

I would like to state that I don't believe you need to be a genius or even all that intelligent to be a sports executive, I think there are intelligent fans who understand the game and understand what they are watching that could easily do a better job than some the notoriously bad historical GMs (looking at you Mike Milbury and Garth Snow).

Dubas and Chayka (that moron that Arizona hired) were heralded as the next wave of hockey executives, fresh faced and so intelligent that they would change the game and how managing has been done previously. Chayka was exposed quickly as a know nothing kid who apparently was smooth talking enough to wow a few key board members into getting a GM job. Dubas has stuck around longer but it seems he is cut from the same cloth.

There is really only a few but they are so unrelenting that it makes it seem like more.

 

[Lemontree]

There is really only a few but they are so unrelenting that it makes it seem like more.

You are probably exactly right about this. It does seem like at least half of the HF Leafs board are massive supporters of his but that might not be the case.

 

[GojuLeaf]

Pittsburgh is going to immediately regret this.

The pens are already on the treadmill. They are hanging on to the cup winning trio despite the rest of the team being pretty bad and those guys all entering their late thirties.

 

[thewave]

You are probably exactly right about this. It does seem like at least half of the HF Leafs board are massive supporters of his but that might not be the case.

We basically hired a snake oil salesman who hired another snake oil salesman who hired another snake oil salesman.

Shanny > Dubas > Keefe

The pens are already on the treadmill. They are hanging on to the cup winning trio despite the rest of the team being pretty bad and those guys all entering their late thirties.

Dubas is a fantastic option to tank with. I mean, he does have Dave Nonis type qualities or deficiencies depending on your perspective

 

[Lemontree]

Kyle Dubas is a great GM. Every year he adds good pieces to improve the team and finds low cap hit players that can contribute (e.g. Jarnkrok, Bunting). He was even willing to adapt and include more grit in the lineup when he saw his philosophy of pure skill wasn't working. He's not set in his ways and can adapt and admit when things aren't working. The only thing he's been stubborn about is keeping the same core together.

If we lose in the first round again, I would keep him on only if he's willing to change up the core. This same group of guys have failed 3 times under Babcock and 3 times under Keefe. After a certain point, you have to blame the players and make big changes. If he refuses to trade away core guys, then he can leave too.

Players should always be held accountable because they are the ones on the ice. I don't understand how you can start off talking about how great of a job Dubas has done with the roster and then turn around and say you need to blame the players. Dubas has been here for 5 years, either the core is the solution and the players he has put around continue to be the wrong mix or the core is the issue. Either way Dubas has had more than long enough to figure it out and he hasn't.

 

[HockeyVirus]

So, let me see if I can follow some of the logic that seems to be being applied (not necessary directed at you but the posting base on this form):

Dubas - has done a good/great job and needs to be extended.
Roster/Players - The poster base believe the above therefore the players/roster construction is not the issue. If it was the issue than it would have to fall on Dubas.
Keefe - By default doesn't Keefe have to be the issue if the logic is that Dubas did an awesome job constructing the roster and this team still seemingly no where near contender status.

Dubas was named the GM on May 11th, 2018. He has had 5 years to construct the roster exactly the way he wants. This is HIS roster and this is HIS coach. The recent failure of this organization rests squarely on Dubas and Shanahan. There needs to be sweeping changes this off-season unless this team wins at least 2 rounds. YES, they need to beat both TBay and Boston (assuming Bruins advance past Panthers) for any of the Management staff and coaching staff to survive. Its about damn time there is some accountability with this organization.

More like Dubas made decisions that made sense and the result is what it is. You wanted him to trade Matthews / Marner 24 or under and watch them light it up for another franchise for the next decade while we cry about how things are different if we kept them like Kadri?

Keefe had the team playing the right way to win for 82 games. Unless you are suggesting he told them to go out and play soft and scared it is on the team not him.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The Tavares signing and Kadri trade, along with all his early moves will probably be his undoing. You much damage way too early to recover from.

 

[myleafs]

Look at our roster and explain to me how it is on the GM. Dubas came into a situation with 3 stars who had produced on their ELC's (which is different than every other team) and had to sign them as a rookie. Even if you say those signings were poor, he rebuilt the entire roster under a flat cap from a soft run and gun team to a team that was one of the best defensive teams in the league with depth that played the right way to win.

The roster coming onto the ice and looking as if they have never played hockey together is not the GM's fault. You guys cry hard about the Kadri trade, how would you like to see Nylander be that but even worse because no one is paying the value for him we have due to the same reasons boomers hate him.

So you are basically saying you want to trade a under 24/25 franchise C who is breaking franchise records left and right after not having one of them forever or Marner who we all know how good he is and how important he is to the team. Those moves were what made us not a first round laughing stock, but a regular season one years before.

All to say, his biggest "mistake" was being loyal to an under 25 group of superstars hoping they would figure it out. I don't want to hear about Tavares signing either because it's hindsight bs, every fan was hyped about that signing and thought it meant a cup was coming home.

Like usual, Dubas will move on and lift the cup elsewhere, along with likely Matthews/marner/Nylander/whoever else we scapegoat out of town. And we'll have the same folks crying today sitting there 5 years from now calling whoever a clown for trading these guys.

But I do think if this loss happens, even Dubas recognizes the time for change to the core. I am of the opinion he should be given 2 more years to retool the core of the roster instead of hiring a shitty GM like treliving or whoever other dinosaur who will sign Gudbranson to 4x4 in UFA

 

[myleafs]

Look at our roster and explain to me how it is on the GM. Dubas came into a situation with 3 stars who had produced on their ELC's (which is different than every other team) and had to sign them as a rookie. Even if you say those signings were poor, he rebuilt the entire roster under a flat cap from a soft run and gun team to a team that was one of the best defensive teams in the league with depth that played the right way to win.

The roster coming onto the ice and looking as if they have never played hockey together is not the GM's fault. You guys cry hard about the Kadri trade, how would you like to see Nylander be that but even worse because no one is paying the value for him we have due to the same reasons boomers hate him.

So you are basically saying you want to trade a under 24/25 franchise C who is breaking franchise records left and right after not having one of them forever or Marner who we all know how good he is and how important he is to the team. Those moves were what made us not a first round laughing stock, but a regular season one years before.

All to say, his biggest "mistake" was being loyal to an under 25 group of superstars hoping they would figure it out. I don't want to hear about Tavares signing either because it's hindsight bs, every fan was hyped about that signing and thought it meant a cup was coming home.

Like usual, Dubas will move on and lift the cup elsewhere, along with likely Matthews/marner/Nylander/whoever else we scapegoat out of town. And we'll have the same folks crying today sitting there 5 years from now calling whoever a clown for trading these guys.

But I do think if this loss happens, even Dubas recognizes the time for change to the core. I am of the opinion he should be given 2 more years to retool the core of the roster instead of hiring a shitty GM like treliving or whoever other dinosaur who will sign Gudbranson to 4x4 in UFA

While I respect your dedication I couldnt disagree more on a few things. How is it on the gm? I mean he is the one who paid out the contracts to the big 3 then added another 11 milly player...thats on him. He chose his rookie coach and he surrounded the team with players and philosophy of playing soft and without emotion...to his credit or (shanny) he did a 180 and added some toughness at the trade deadline. He is the architect of this team so if he isnt responsible who is?

He wasnt just loyal ...he gave the 3 young guys everything he could and more.and still went out and spent like a druken sailor on a player we didnt need at the time which directly affected the depth players....dont get me started on his goalies arent a priority attitude. No other team has done that the way he did.

Like usual he will hoist the cup elsewhere? Not sure what this even means. But if he cant hoist the cup (or win a round) taking over a 105 pt team with the talent that was in place then Im not sure what gives you the impression he will succeed somewhere else.

Yea lets keep the guy (if we get bounced again) so he can overpay the boys again.....and expect different results. I was a big fan of Dubas when he arrived (I drank the koolaid) but over time his shtick has gotten a bit stale and other than this year at tdl I have not like how he has added to the team that he inherited.

 

[myleafs]

Kyle Dubas is a great GM. Every year he adds good pieces to improve the team and finds low cap hit players that can contribute (e.g. Jarnkrok, Bunting). He was even willing to adapt and include more grit in the lineup when he saw his philosophy of pure skill wasn't working. He's not set in his ways and can adapt and admit when things aren't working. The only thing he's been stubborn about is keeping the same core together.

If we lose in the first round again, I would keep him on only if he's willing to change up the core. This same group of guys have failed 3 times under Babcock and 3 times under Keefe. After a certain point, you have to blame the players and make big changes. If he refuses to trade away core guys, then he can leave too.

Not sure how to respond to that.....how is a gm who inheritated a 105 pt team with the high end talent that came with it and who has never made it past the first round great? Seems like a pretty low bar you got there.