Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[Wafflewhipper]

Brown has put up double the points because he leeched points off Pageau having an insane start to the season, and because he's playing 20 minutes a game, not because he's that level of player. And he's in the last year of his deal.


Ceci was qualified by Ottawa. He was either kept on our terms or kept on his terms. We chose ours, and he hasn't been as bad as you claim.


Not even close. Zaitsev has been absolutely horrible in Ottawa.


Oh yeah, except for that thing that is massively important.

Brown has put up double the points because he leeched points off Pageau having an insane start to the season, and because he's playing 20 minutes a game, not because he's that level of player. And he's in the last year of his deal.


Ceci was qualified by Ottawa. He was either kept on our terms or kept on his terms. We chose ours, and he hasn't been as bad as you claim.


Not even close. Zaitsev has been absolutely horrible in Ottawa.


Oh yeah, except for that thing that is massively important.

Thet could have walked away on Ceci

Brown is not a leech or every player is a leech thats a little less than the best on the line. He forchecks and kills penalties too, so you better calculate that in you minutes he is getting

zaitsev has not been horrible in ottawa

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Everyone want to compare Kerfoot to Kadri but i would rather still have Downtown in the lineup doing what kerfoot does. Brown has put up double the points and kills penalties etc for Ottawa at $1,400,000 cheaper. Ceci needs to go, shouldn’t have been kept period. Zaitsev is actually better than Ceci except for that term.

Bad trading record starting to show.

1. Barrie AND Kerfoot for Kadri. Kerfoot plays center, while Brown does not. Brown also had an insanely lucky start (when his center Pageau was on a crazy scoring streak) and had like 13 points in 10 games. He's had 6 points his last 19 games. Brown plays 18-21 minutes a night. It's not even comparable. Both are 30-45 point players, but Kerfoot has the advantage being a center and signed for longer.

2. Ceci is much better than Zaitsev. Ceci can at least move the puck efficiently but Zaitsev hasn't done that since half a season in his first year, and then add in that terrible contract. Oh god.

One of the main strengths of Dubas has been his trades.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This bashing of Petan is baffling, considering he's been arguably our best 4th line guy all year other than Spezza and maybe Engvall.

Goat and Tima started off strong, but have really fallen back. Shore was complete garbage.

People complain incessantly about "effort", and then want to get rid of the guy giving more effort than anybody else, even though he's rather inconsequential and just having pretty bad luck? It's almost like people just want to complain and have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

The problem with Petan. is he gives. You NOTHING offensivelly, and that would be fine20 years ago, 10 years ago, even 7 or 8 years ago when bottom 6 guys were mostly grinders and not really expected to score.

But now the game has.changed, you need a certain level off production from every lineand he gives you NOTHING iin fact I have watched him Kill offensive momentum more than create it.

 

[zeke]

Yeah as poor as Ceci has been zaitsev is still even worse.

Ceci: ES 18:30, +1.0oz-dz%, .62p60, 50.5cf% (-6.4rel), 48.3xgf% (-0.2rel)
Zaits: ES 19:06, +0.4oz-dz%, .62p60, 42.7cf% (-13.2rel), 46.9xgf% (-0.6rel)

Thankfully neither will be on our team much longer.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Thet could have walked away on Ceci

Not really, no. The team couldn't elect arbitration or they couldn't walk away. Ceci could have accepted the QO, or if Ceci elected for arbitration instead, the Leafs would have had to argue more than his QO in arbitration to be able to walk away, and then we're looking at filling an important D spot with an unknown in August.

Ceci has not been this team's problem. His usage, maybe partially, but even then, Ceci's problems are way overblown based primarily on previous reputation.

Brown is not a leech or every player is a leech thats a little less than the best on the line.

This isn't about how linemates affect production. Pageau was getting lucky and scoring at an unsustainable level he has never come close to touching, and Brown was getting assists off of that. He's come back down to earth since, but because you are looking at small sample sizes, you think he's that level of player. He's not.

He forchecks and kills penalties too, so you better calculate that in you minutes he is getting

I'm not sure what forechecking has to do with minutes, but even aside from PK minutes, Brown is getting way more minutes than he would ever get here or anywhere else.

zaitsev has not been horrible in ottawa

Imagine hating on Ceci and claiming the way worse Zaitsev has not been horrible.

Grass is always greener. Zaitsev has been absolutely atrocious in Ottawa this year.

 

[SprDaVE]

The problem with Petan. is he gives. You NOTHING offensivelly, and that would be fine20 years ago, 10 years ago, even 7 or 8 years ago when bottom 6 guys were mostly grinders and not really expected to score.

But now the game has.changed, you need a certain level off production from every lineand he gives you NOTHING iin fact I have watched him Kill offensive momentum more than create it.

I think he's done pretty well? His shot attempts difference is among the best on the team by far. So that means when he's on the ice, the team generates a lot more shots for than against. This is with a lot more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts too. He generates a ton more shots compared to every other depth forward we have.

He's been a little unlucky in terms of converting on his chances. He's due to for a bit of a break out, or at the very least go on a bit of a hot streak.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Not really, no. The team couldn't elect arbitration or they couldn't walk away. Ceci could have accepted the QO, or if Ceci elected for arbitration instead, the Leafs would have had to argue more than his QO in arbitration to be able to walk away, and then we're looking at filling an important D spot with an unknown in August.

Ceci has not been this team's problem. His usage, maybe partially, but even then, Ceci's problems are way overblown based primarily on previous reputation.


This isn't about how linemates affect production. Pageau was getting lucky and scoring at an unsustainable level he has never come close to touching, and Brown was getting assists off of that. He's come back down to earth since, but because you are looking at small sample sizes, you think he's that level of player. He's not.


I'm not sure what forechecking has to do with minutes, but even aside from PK minutes, Brown is getting way more minutes than he would ever get here or anywhere else.



Imagine hating on Ceci and claiming the way worse Zaitsev has not been horrible.

Grass is always greener. Zaitsev has been absolutely atrocious in Ottawa this year.

Dubas could have at minimum paid some signing bonus in that contract to make him tradable, he didn’t! Still just one year and equal to Zaitsevs salary.

Nonetheless Brown is better than Kerfoot

 

[Mess]

Someone said Petan too good for AHL, but not good enough for NHL. I bet he dominates the Swiss league.

A lot of these small skilled forwards that eat up junior hockey struggle at the NHL level and end up playing in Europe.

Petan has already cleared NHL waivers unclaimed so he is not seen as an NHL by any team at the moment.

Timashov likely next behind Petan to follow this path.

Engvall has size strength and PK ability to be an effective NHLer and I can see Keefe preferring players that play a bigger heavier game then all these small skilled forwards available.

 

[ACC1224]

I think he's done pretty well? His shot attempts difference is among our best on the team by far. So that means when he's on the ice, the team generates a lot more shots for than against. This is with a lot more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts too. He generates a ton more shots compared to every other depth forward we have.

He's been a little unlucky in terms of converting on his chances. He's due to for a bit of a break out.

I don't know much about him other than WJHC and then his play here, has he ever had a 'break out' at any point in his career?

 

[Dekes For Days]

The problem with Petan. is he gives. You NOTHING offensivelly, and that would be fine20 years ago, 10 years ago, even 7 or 8 years ago when bottom 6 guys were mostly grinders and not really expected to score.

But now the game has.changed, you need a certain level off production from every lineand he gives you NOTHING iin fact I have watched him Kill offensive momentum more than create it.

Not sure what you're watching TBH.

The argument is he gives you nothing offensively, but people are upset that he was put in instead of... Gauthier...?

 

[SprDaVE]

I don't know much about him other than WJHC and then his play here, has he ever had a 'break out' at any point in his career?

He won't be the first or the last player to go on a bit of a hot streak or break out offensively after a tough start to his career.

 

[ACC1224]

He won't be the first or the last player to go on a bit of a hot streak or break out offensively after a tough start to his career.

I'll take that to mean it hasn't happened prior.
Don't see it with his current usage.
What would be considered a break out?

 

[SprDaVE]

I'll take that to mean it hasn't happened prior.
Don't see it with his current usage.
What would be considered a break out?

Better pace than his current pace?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I think he's done pretty well? His shot attempts difference is among the best on the team by far. So that means when he's on the ice, the team generates a lot more shots for than against. This is with a lot more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts too. He generates a ton more shots compared to every other depth forward we have.

He's been a little unlucky in terms of converting on his chances. He's due to for a bit of a break out, or at the very least go on a bit of a hot streak.

You. can think he's done pretty well all you want but 0 goals and 3 assists in 15 games says you are wrong.

Even Engvall has a goal and his is short handed and he hasn't played as many games.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Not sure what you're watching TBH.

The argument is he gives you nothing offensively, but people are upset that he was put in instead of... Gauthier...?

Just because Goat isn't good enough, doesn't mean Petan is.

It means you need better 4th liners.

 

[SprDaVE]

You. can think he's done pretty well all you want but 0 goals and 3 assists in 15 games says you are wrong.

Even Engvall has a goal and his is short handed and he hasn't played as many games.

Engvall has done well. 1 goal versus 0 goals and the same amount of points isn't exactly domination either but he has played 5 less games.

Petan has done very well in what we want out of a depth forward. He's generating a lot of shots for his team when he's on the ice, which means he's not in the defensive zone and that's with 65% of his zone starts in the defensive zone. This is good.

If he stays in the lineup a little more and he keeps playing like that, the points and goals should come to a better pace. At the worst, you have a pretty good cheap forward that doesn't get filled in shot attempts unlike Shore, Gauthier and Timashov.

 

[MyBudJT]

Engvall has done well. 1 goal versus 0 goals and the same amount of points isn't exactly domination either but he has played 5 less games.

Petan has done very well in what we want out of a depth forward. He's generating a lot of shots for his team when he's on the ice, which means he's not in the defensive zone and that's with 65% of his zone starts in the defensive zone. This is good.

If he stays in the lineup a little more and he keeps playing like that, the points and goals should come to a better pace. At the worst, you have a pretty good cheap forward that doesn't get filled in shot attempts unlike Shore, Gauthier and Timashov.

Yeah, Petan has been better than Timashov IMO.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Timashov started well but couldn't keep up the pace. Goat - pretty much the same. And since he's a liability on the PK, not much point keeping him around

 

[zeke]

Just because Goat isn't good enough, doesn't mean Petan is.

It means you need better 4th liners.

Engvall-Spezza-Moore

 

[ShaneFalco]

Just because Goat isn't good enough, doesn't mean Petan is.

It means you need better 4th liners.

And you're basing this on goals/points?

 

[Teeder Keon]

Yeah, Petan has been better than Timashov IMO.

Let’s say for arguments sake , that they are the same ..
Now add the fact that Tima has more goals and assists and points
Now add that Tima makes actual contact with the opposite players and is feisty and stronger and has more Jam
Now add that Petan has “0” goals “O” that is
Also now add that Keefe put him in the lineup in his home town in front of his friends and family and his response was even less than any other previous game , which doesn’t say much ..
Now ... I don’t think either of them are impressive enough , but between them , please tell me and us differently ..
GLG

 

[ACC1224]

Better pace than his current pace?

Seems like a pretty low bar which you'd like to think he could exceed.

 

[Teeder Keon]

We need to somehow change the look and makeup of our team in the bottom 6 at the very least with our 4th line
I’m ok ( possibly ok ) with “Kerfoot “ AJ and Kk on the 3rd
But we need to completely overhaul the look , feel and structure of our 4th line
We need it to be bigger , badder and more pissed off to at least give the other teams a different look and feel .
Marchment , Engvall , Korshakov ?
Or trade for the line

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

And you're basing this on goals/points?

They have to provide. SOME offense that's how. the NHL works now.

It's not 1999 anymore

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas could have at minimum paid some signing bonus in that contract to make him tradable, he didn’t! Still just one year and equal to Zaitsevs salary.

Yes, 1 year instead of 5, at the same cap hit for a better player, who was essentially locked in at that price because of the decisions of the previous team, where he played even worse and was still valued enough to be qualified.

Pretty much the only way adding a signing bonus would have helped is if we were, ironically, trading him to Ottawa. That's not happening.

Nonetheless Brown is better than Kerfoot

Except he's not. At all. And really never has been.