Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Gallagbi]

The Leafs chose based on organization preference, not injury status, that trotting out Jake was the better play for them. The issue is THEY CONSIDERED THE ALTERNATIVE. That shows it was an "either, or" proposition. It had NOTHING to do with him actually being injured. The "scale" was used to manipulate the Leafs situation into the desired direction of the GM. Muzzin's health did not dictate the decision. Kyle did.

There's a lot of assumptions in this paragraph that are really difficult to backup.

It was based on preference, not injury
It had nothing to do with actually being injured
Muzzins health didn't dictate the decision

Those are big leaps.

Also, what manipulation do you think was done on the scale given he returned with mo LTIR benefit to the team? If anything, the scale worked against his given he returned and was soon sidelined.

 

[riffle]

There's a lot of assumptions in this paragraph that are really difficult to backup.

It was based on preference, not injury
It had nothing to do with actually being injured
Muzzins health didn't dictate the decision

Those are big leaps.

Also, what manipulation do you think was done on the scale given he returned with mo LTIR benefit to the team? If anything, the scale worked against his given he returned and was soon sidelined.

They aren't leaps at all.

Dubas had to decide which path he felt was best. He opted to go with prioritizing the return of Muzzin. That was a Ron Burgundy, I immediately regret this decision moment.

If this was dictated by his ability to return, ONLY, then they wouldn't have pondered the option of using his money at the deadline. Not sure why you're calling facts, assumptions?

Do you at least acknowledge the decision/choice was there to make? And, that if made to keep Jake out and use his money, that would mean he was most likely out for the rest of the regular season? How would he make the cap work if he'd given out a 5 million dollar deal to a forward and have him return? All these calculations are being made all the time with injuries during deadline and also not during deadline as to how to move money around. It is largely dictated by preference. At the deadline with Jake, it was all about preference and I hope you can acknowledge what the decision was and was based upon.

 

[Cleetus]

That actually doesn't have to be true at all

You can root for a team and not root management. I love Canada but I don't like Treadeau at all

Every investment and time is measured against opportunity cost. Kyle Dubas has taken what should have been a super competitive team, turned them into a choke artist

His data driven decision has cost this team significant opportunity to progress. We should have been the team in the finals last year. I guess we are just going ot accept that and let the by gones by be by gones

His trades?
Foligno for 1st
Kadri who would have gotten 100 points this year if not for injury and suspension for who exactly?

We have no addressed out goalie situation. Team top 9 still super soft

Remember Ceaser?

It's not that I dont' love Ceasers, I love Rome more..... It is because some of us Love the Leafs hate what we have in our management

For all that he was given, he hasn't gotten past 1 single round of playoff hockey...........1

But glory to him to our supreme leader because if I dont' like him, clearlyI don't love the Leafs

this post is why I love reading your posts totally nailed it!

 

[Leaf Fans]

That actually doesn't have to be true at all

You can root for a team and not root management. I love Canada but I don't like Treadeau at all

Every investment and time is measured against opportunity cost. Kyle Dubas has taken what should have been a super competitive team, turned them into a choke artist

His data driven decision has cost this team significant opportunity to progress. We should have been the team in the finals last year. I guess we are just going ot accept that and let the by gones by be by gones

His trades?
Foligno for 1st
Kadri who would have gotten 100 points this year if not for injury and suspension for who exactly?

We have no addressed out goalie situation. Team top 9 still super soft

Remember Ceaser?

It's not that I dont' love Ceasers, I love Rome more..... It is because some of us Love the Leafs hate what we have in our management

For all that he was given, he hasn't gotten past 1 single round of playoff hockey...........1

But glory to him to our supreme leader because if I dont' like him, clearlyI don't love the Leafs

You most definitely can love the team without loving the management. Very few people people would disagree with that.

 

[Menzinger]

We will be very lucky if Kase plays another pro hockey game in his career.

Don't expect him back for the playoffs, so not sure.theres any conspiracy at play here. He likely ends up getting a league minimum deal from the Leafs and either terminates or is LTIR'd by the start of next season if he doesn't feel up to playing

 

[Jojalu]

I'm not rooting for them to lose. I just accept reality. This team isn't built right and Dubas won't be the one to correct that.

Reality is the playoffs havn't started so you don't know if this team is buolt for the playoffs.

They have 40% different players than last year and although the core remained the same they have all shown a new degree of playoff hockey throughout the season.

They very well might lose to Tampa. They might also win.

People act like the Leafs have been swept in every playoff series. Not to mention dismiss the record regular season they have put togethercad if it is meaningless.

Even if the Leafs lose they will not fire Dubas but allow him to change the core and see what happens from there

 

[Gallagbi]

If this was dictated by his ability to return, ONLY, then they wouldn't have pondered the option of using his money at the deadline. Not sure why you're calling facts, assumptions?

What is known about them pondering it?

It sounds as simple as them saying he was healthy enough to return, so they planned for it.

Do you at least acknowledge the decision/choice was there to make? And, that if made to keep Jake out and use his money, that would mean he was most likely out for the rest of the regular season? How would he make the cap work if he'd given out a 5 million dollar deal to a forward and have him return? All these calculations are being made all the time with injuries during deadline and also not during deadline as to how to move money around. It is largely dictated by preference. At the deadline with Jake, it was all about preference and I hope you can acknowledge what the decision was and was based upon.

There was a decision to make given what we know now, here's what I expect the factors and considerations were
1. Does Muzzin's health improve if he rests more
2. Does Muzzin need time to get back up to speed
3. Do we want to leverage the cap space LTIR would present
Then a balancing/factoring of those 3.

What I don't understand is why you think it was cap manipulation to bring him back? The benefit would have been sitting him out. Simply I don't understand your Kase example when it looks like he could return to cap-wise.

There's a better argument that we screwed up not leveraging the LTIR route.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Sure, and last year was the best. And the year before that. Yet those teams did shit all in the playoffs each time, so surely you can understand my skeptism at yet another best Leafs team ever

You can calm down on the aggressiveness here. I'm with you in terms of the skepticism of the playoffs (to the point where I don't think they'll make it past round 1).

But that it's the point.

The point is that this is the best regular season Leafs' team we've seen in the modern era - as evidence by their record, wins, and points in the standings. I did not said last year or the year prior's was better. The proof is in the standings.

And while I get the skepticism, it's your own fault if you can't appreciate how awesome the regular season has been because in addition to the above:

- Watching Matthews' hit 50 goals AND break Vaive's record positioning himself for his second Rocket
- Marner having his best season, and could hit 100 points
- Two 100-point players is incredible considering it's only happened 4 times in the past for the Leafs

A lot of fun things to enjoy.

Will that all go to hell in a couple of weeks? Probably. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy/appreciate what has been do date.

 

[riffle]

What is known about them pondering it?


There was a decision to make given what we know now, here's what I expect the factors and considerations were
1. Does Muzzin's health improve if he rests more
2. Does Muzzin need time to get back up to speed
3. Do we want to leverage the cap space LTIR would present
Then a balancing/factoring of those 3.

What I don't understand is why you think it was cap manipulation to bring him back? The benefit would have been sitting him out. Simply I don't understand your Kase example when it looks like he could return to cap-wise.

There's a better argument that we screwed up not leveraging the LTIR route.

#3 for sure. No argument. But, do you see that if we did that, then Jake likely is out for the rest of the season? They wanted him back and valued him back there on D, more than adding a forward/goalie. That was the choice. It wasn't Jake is ready to go or he isn't as you would expect with an injury. A guy is either injured and unable to play, or not injured and able to play. Yes, there is a gray area where you could choose either way but even when it is black and white the Leafs use the cover of gray to manipulate it how they best see fit.

The cap is incredibly tight as the Keefe clip I posted shows and Earl Schwartz's tweet posted regarding Kase's likely fate back in March.

 

[Menzinger]

Leafs fans need to learn how to enjoy watching hockey sometimes.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs fans need to learn how to enjoy watching hockey sometimes.

They’ve been great this year. Who hasn’t enjoyed watching this season?

 

[Gallagbi]

#3 for sure. No argument. But, do you see that if we did that, then Jake likely is out for the rest of the season? They wanted him back and valued him back there on D, more than adding a forward/goalie. That was the choice. It wasn't Jake is ready to go or he isn't as you would expect with an injury. A guy is either injured and unable to play, or not injured and able to play. Yes, there is a gray area where you could choose either way but even when it is black and white the Leafs use the cover of gray to manipulate it how they best see fit.

The cap is incredibly tight as the Keefe clip I posted shows and Earl Schwartz's tweet posted regarding Kase's likely fate back in March.

I absolutely see that they chose not to use LTIR for Muzzin through the rest of the year. The question I have is how is that an example of cap manipulation when they chose not to exploit? Same with your Kase example and how he could return now, but hasn't when there's no cap benefit to the Leafs.

And were absolutely a cap team who plays with the roster throughout the year to accommodate. It's why we didn't dress a backup for 1 game this year and why we see teams each year dress less than the max number of skaters.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The situation with Muzzin was what do we want more?

A) Muzzin available to us after the TDL

or

B) Muzzin not available to us and his money to spend more at the deadline which would make it even harder to bring him back once his money went elsewhere. (Many ramifications of the decision that are never pondered by many here who believe this is all about health, and it just working out)

The Leafs chose based on organization preference, not injury status, that trotting out Jake was the better play for them. The issue is THEY CONSIDERED THE ALTERNATIVE. That shows it was an "either, or" proposition. It had NOTHING to do with him actually being injured. The "scale" was used to manipulate the Leafs situation into the desired direction of the GM. Muzzin's health did not dictate the decision. Kyle did.

So the crux of your argument is that Dubas could have exploited a loophole and chose not to? That's how the Leafs are gaming the cap, by being aware of the existence of loopholes and not using them?

 

[zeke]

So the crux of your argument is that Dubas could have exploited a loophole and chose not to? That's how the Leafs are gaming the cap, by being aware of the existence of loopholes and not using them?

Cunning for sure.

 

[zeke]

They’ve been great this year. Who hasn’t enjoyed watching this season?

 

[Jojalu]

Except the train hasn't left the station yet and everything is only speculation at this point

 

[Nylanderthal]

This is one of the best posts I have read in a while

Not surprised considering how cherry picked some of those “facts" are he used. Just two trade examples? Kadri would never get a sniff at 70 here let alone 100,

 

[Maple Leaf]

It is too late now we are all in this

 

[Nylanderthal]

This is one of the best posts I have read in a while

Not surprisd considering how cherry picked some of those “facts" are he used. Just two trade examples? Kadri would never get a sniff at 70 here let alone 100.
Foligno was target #1 for the anti Dubas crowd. Now it’s revisionist history. You’re all so transparent and fake af

 

[Jojalu]

You can calm down on the aggressiveness here. I'm with you in terms of the skepticism of the playoffs (to the point where I don't think they'll make it past round 1).

But that it's the point.

The point is that this is the best regular season Leafs' team we've seen in the modern era - as evidence by their record, wins, and points in the standings. I did not said last year or the year prior's was better. The proof is in the standings.

And while I get the skepticism, it's your own fault if you can't appreciate how awesome the regular season has been because in addition to the above:

- Watching Matthews' hit 50 goals AND break Vaive's record positioning himself for his second Rocket
- Marner having his best season, and could hit 100 points
- Two 100-point players is incredible considering it's only happened 4 times in the past for the Leafs

A lot of fun things to enjoy.

Will that all go to hell in a couple of weeks? Probably. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy/appreciate what has been do date.

While I still fear a first round exit(mainly because Tampa is Tampa) if you go back to the deadline the Leafs besides being 13-4-2 are

4th in hits
12th in blocked shots
1rst in takeaways
1rst in penalty minutes
5th in fighting majors.

This new found grit/toughness/ fight that they have displayed gives me hope that this year could be different

 

[riffle]

I absolutely see that they chose not to use LTIR for Muzzin through the rest of the year. The question I have is how is that an example of cap manipulation when they chose not to exploit? Same with your Kase example and how he could return now, but hasn't when there's no cap benefit to the Leafs.

And were absolutely a cap team who plays with the roster throughout the year to accommodate. It's why we didn't dress a backup for 1 game this year and why we see teams each year dress less than the max number of skaters.

I don't know why you don't see this. The very fact THEY CONSIDERED DOING IT tells you these things are manipulated. If a guy is injured, he should be injured. You shouldn't have the choice of what you want to do. He either plays when ready, or can't.

 

[riffle]

So the crux of your argument is that Dubas could have exploited a loophole and chose not to? That's how the Leafs are gaming the cap, by being aware of the existence of loopholes and not using them?

Nope. Much more than this. The ramifications of what they do with the cap should really be pondered by this fanbase and more written about it by the scribes in that city, and there should be outcry over how what they choose to do hurts this team. Of course, these games wouldn't be necessary if the cap was, in fact, properly managed in the way of not giving out the kind of contracts that created this mess.

The Leafs have a revolving door of players who aren't injured who sit on LTIR to allow other things to happen but they lose the service of a guy who really isn't that injured but they need the space so off he goes until they can figure out something else.

This almost happened with Muzzin. I'm sure it was a difficult decision for Kyle whether to be more aggressive at the deadline or bring Jake back. Again, using Jake's money would've put Jake on the shelf until the playoffs, and likely why they chose not to commit to that course of action.

At the end of all this, I hope anyone who didn't understand that the Leafs are manipulating the cap, constantly, are at least pondering that this could happen. An improvement over believing that things just neatly and magically work out based on timing of injuries and healing of them.

 

[Gallagbi]

I don't know why you don't see this. The very fact THEY CONSIDERED DOING IT tells you these things are manipulated. If a guy is injured, he should be injured. You shouldn't have the choice of what you want to do. He either plays when ready, or can't.

I said teams do exploit the cap earlier and gave examples.

My question is how do you think the Leafs have done it recently? Your Muzzin and Kase examples don't seem to support it.

Im also not sure how much consideration was actually given to LTIR'ing Muzzin through the TDL. Everytime I heard it speculated the Leafs response was they weren't going that route because he was healthy

 

[riffle]

I said teams do earlier and gave examples.

My question is how do you think the Leafs have done it recently? Your Muzzin and Kase examples don't seem to support it.

Muzzin absolutely does. How much cap space do you think we have right now?

 

[Gallagbi]

Muzzin absolutely does. How much cap space do you think we have right now?

Muzzin is on the cap now