Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Damisoph]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

 

[ACC1224]

If you don't know or follow other teams in thee league to see what their coaches and GMs are doing, you don't know enough to be speaking on matters of whether or not anyone is a good GM/coach.

I'm a hockey fans who's favourite team is the Leafs.

You're a Leafs fan who doesn't watch hockey when the Leafs aren't playing.

So learn to be humble and shut up. You might learn a thing or two. Or you can sit back and be a snarky smartass and be look stupid.

If your reading comprehension rivals your hockey knowledge I’m sure we’re all in for a treat.

You could always strive to read and understand a post before posting this garbage. I’m doubtful you will but we can always hope.

 

[ToneDog]

I see we are back to Lou vs Kyle. LOL. I see arguments for both sides but until Kyle wins a series (0 for 3 and failed to close out all 3 series), embarrassing belittling Lou who has 2 cup rings and how many series win with the Isles to prop up Kyle.

Kyle is at the top of the world today as his team is top 5 in the standings but in the end Kyle will be judged by his playoff success and he is currently at zero. I'd wait until we win a series before attacking Lou.

 

[ACC1224]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

 

[ITM]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

I don't know if the game has passed them by so much as the culture has been affected in ways they seemed ill-equipped to handle. Obviously, moreso Babcock than Lou.

And on Lou as Leafs GM, I wonder what would have happened if he had moved a player like Devon Toews for 2 2nds?

Not disparaging Lou, just pointing out - as one who thought he should have remained while Dubas continue as AGM or GM under Lou as Dir. of H/Ops. - that there is always going to be room for humility in defending our champions beyond a proper first allegiance to the club.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't think you need to put down someone in order to prove another person is better.
But thats just me

Amen brother

 

[Gary Nylund]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

The Leafs finished tied for 6th overall in 2018 while NYI was 22nd. Then we got their best player from them without giving up anything in return to boot so their future looked bleak and Leaf fans were planning the parade but since then, somehow they've gone on multiple cup runs while we're still waiting to win even one round.

NYI lost 2-1 in game 7 to TB who went on to win the cup. If NYI wins that game instead and then beats Dallas in the finals (which would have been no surprise whatsoever) would you still be saying that the game has passed him by?

 

[Mess]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

FWI

Lou Lam has been named 2 X as Exec of the year [2020 & 2021] since leaving the Leafs in the past 3 years, Hardly someone who his peers believe time has passed him by.

I agree on the first part of your point in that Babcock and Lou were needed, because our Leafs were an embarrassing mess, and had missed the playoffs 9 of the previous 10 years prior to their arrival.. Then with their valuable experience after orchestrating a last overall finish and drafting franchise player Auston Matthews, they return the Leafs back to respectability and went from last overall to a playoff spot the next year and then handed over a 100+ point team to their successors.

 

[Damisoph]

FWI

Lou Lam has been named 2 X as Exec of the year [2020 & 2021] since leaving the Leafs in the past 3 years, Hardly someone who his peers believe time has passed him by.

I agree on the first part of your point in that Babcock and Lou were needed, because our Leafs were an embarrassing mess, and had missed the playoffs 9 of the previous 10 years prior to their arrival.. Then after orchestrating a last overall finish and drafting franchise player Auston Matthews they return the Leafs back to respectability and went from last overall to a playoff spot the next year and then handed over a 100+ point team to their successors.

Counterpoint - Barry Trotz was a bigger factor in the Isles success these past two years. Just look at the contracts Lou has given out to 3rd and 4th liners. We'd be apoplectic if he handed out those deals as Leafs GM.

 

[ACC1224]

Counterpoint - Barry Trotz was a bigger factor in the Isles success these past two years. Just look at the contracts Lou has given out to 3rd and 4th liners. We'd be apoplectic if he handed out those deals as Leafs GM.

In fairness though the Leafs didn’t have the cap space to hand out such deals. (Before the alarms go off I’m not saying they would have anyway)

Trotz is excellent though. Shame the Leafs missed out on him.

 

[Mess]

I view Lou's Leafs tenure similarly to Babcock. Both guys were what we needed at the time, and the game has since passed them by. Sure Lou made some mistakes, every GM does.

FWI

Lou Lam has been named 2 X as Exec of the year [2020 & 2021] since leaving the Leafs in the past 3 years, Hardly someone who his peers believe time has passed him by.

I agree on the first part of your point in that Babcock and Lou were needed, because our Leafs were an embarrassing mess, and had missed the playoffs 9 of the previous 10 years prior to their arrival.. Then after orchestrating a last overall finish and drafting franchise player Auston Matthews they return the Leafs back to respectability and went from last overall to a playoff spot the next year and then handed over a 100+ point team to their successors.

Counterpoint - Barry Trotz was a bigger factor in the Isles success these past two years. Just look at the contracts Lou has given out to 3rd and 4th liners. We'd be apoplectic if he handed out those deals as Leafs GM.

Lou Lam inherited a non playoff Islanders team and then produced 2 X final 4 playoff finishes.
vs
Kyle Dubas inherited a 105 point record setting team and then lead them to 2 X embarrassing 1st round losses to CBJ and MON.

In case you not aware one of the main jobs of the GM is to hire his coach, and so while Dubas could have hired Trotz when he was available, he chose to hire his pal Sheldon Keefe instead. The record and results of the team reflect back on the job performance of the GM that he manages including his choice of coach.

Counterpoint- Lou Lam drafted franchise #1C Auston Matthews for the Leafs and now his 50 goals in 50 games as the best pure goal scorer in the game is helping the Leafs to wins, and is now the success wave Kyle Dubas & Sheldon Keefe are riding.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Those contracts only became problems when the new GM had a new plan. Signing Tavares ended the rebuild and warped our cap distribution.

Marleau was a problem the minute it was signed, and everybody including the people who signed it knew so. Bad contracts don't suddenly become not bad contracts because a GM could theoretically just decide to sabotage their team, reject signing an elite player, leave departing players unreplaced, and waste their superstar's ELC years - all to hang on to a massively overpaid on-ice liability.

Tavares didn't warp anything, and the idea that signing Tavares was this massive shift in philosophy is pretty hilarious as well, since Lou essentially tried to do the same thing, but just failed miserably at it. He tried to sign Stamkos, and then when that failed, he turned to overpaying and giving a poison pill term to a 38-year old winger (our most stacked position by far) on his last legs. And we were not in a rebuild when Tavares was signed. That went out the window when we had made the playoffs, kept expiring players, and spent assets on rentals for 2 years in a row.

The Zaitsev contract was a too long, but 4.5 for a good second pair defensemen isn’t a contract you try to unload unless you have other cap problems. He would actually be really nice to have right about now - certainly much better than Lyubushkin or Holl.

Zaitsev is not a second pair defenseman and both Holl and Lyubushkin are better than him, at a much lower cost. Zaitsev wouldn't make our defense right now.

Marleau was a player that we would have helped the Leafs in that third year.

No, he wasn't. He was already dragging down every line he went on in his 2nd year, and was being massively overutilized by the coach over far superior options. Even just having him on the team would have made us worse, before even getting into the negative impacts of removing Tavares to do it.

 

[hotpaws]

In fairness though the Leafs didn’t have the cap space to hand out such deals. (Before the alarms go off I’m not saying they would have anyway)

Trotz is excellent though. Shame the Leafs missed out on him.

alarms have gone off and it's only a matter of time before the crew activates but i'll run a little interference for you since i have time this morning

still can't believe someone would trade a 1st plus plus for a washed up injured Foligno , lol , and a 3rd for a 3rd string rental goalie and late picks for Hutton and Nash , lol , all these assets out the door and not one of them gave us any value in the playoffs

can't believe how short sighted these moves were and how much we're going to pay for them in the future

 

[Damisoph]

FWI

Lou Lam has been named 2 X as Exec of the year [2020 & 2021] since leaving the Leafs in the past 3 years, Hardly someone who his peers believe time has passed him by.

I agree on the first part of your point in that Babcock and Lou were needed, because our Leafs were an embarrassing mess, and had missed the playoffs 9 of the previous 10 years prior to their arrival.. Then after orchestrating a last overall finish and drafting franchise player Auston Matthews they return the Leafs back to respectability and went from last overall to a playoff spot the next year and then handed over a 100+ point team to their successors.


Lou Lam inherited a non playoff Islanders team and then produced 2 X final 4 finishes.
vs
Kyle Dubas inherited a 105 point record setting team and then lead them to 2 X embarrassing losses to CBJ and MON.

In case you not aware one of the main jobs of the GM is to hire his coach, and so while Dubas could have hired Trotz when he was available, he chose to hire his pal Sheldon Keefe instead. The record and results of the team reflect back on the job performance of the GM that he manages including his choice of coach.

Oh I'm aware. In fact, hiring Barry Trotz was the best move Lou has made since he's been with the Islanders and should be the sole reason he won exec of the year two years in a row. Surely it can't be because he handed out these deals...

Casey Cizikas 6 years $15M
Kyle Palmieri 4 years $20M
Matt Martin 4 years $6M
JG Pageau 6 years $30M
Cal Clutterbuck 5 years $17.5M

Simply put, Lou rode Barry Trotz and .920 sv% goaltending to two final 4s. I suppose they can imitate Nashville and put up banners as Conference Finalists.

 

[ToneDog]

alarms have gone off and it's only a matter of time before the crew activates but i'll run a little interference for you since i have time this morning

still can't believe someone would trade a 1st plus plus for a washed up injured Foligno , lol , and a 3rd for a 3rd string rental goalie and late picks for Hutton and Nash , lol , all these assets out the door and not one of them gave us any value in the playoffs

can't believe how short sighted these moves were and how much we're going to pay for them in the future

Kyle's fanboys are trying to forget this. Every GM makes mistakes. Kyle is lucky nobody holds him accountable because MLSEL prints money. Try burying Ritchie and Mrazeks contracts if you are a GM of a budget team.

 

[4thline]

Kyle's fanboys are trying to forget this.

Translates to:
Leaf fans happy with the state of the team and prospect pool are willing to overlook this.

You get more leeway for spending futures if you're able to keep the system in great shape despite of it.

51 win / 108 point team (and counting) 3 top 50 prospects AFTER losing one of the top dogs to friggen brain tumour.

 

[ToneDog]

Translates to:
Leaf fans happy with the state of the team and prospect pool are willing to overlook this.

You get more leeway for spending futures if you're able to keep the system in great shape despite of it.

51 win / 108 point team (and counting) 3 top 50 prospects AFTER losing one of the top dogs to friggen brain tumour.

You are not wrong. The error was misjudging the team that he went all in on. Kind of like Burkie thinking Kessel was the mission g piece and giving up 2 1sts and a 2nd.

 

[hotpaws]

Oh I'm aware. In fact, hiring Barry Trotz was the best move Lou has made since he's been with the Islanders and should be the sole reason he won exec of the year two years in a row. Surely it can't be because he handed out these deals...

Casey Cizikas 6 years $15M
Kyle Palmieri 4 years $20M
Matt Martin 4 years $6M
JG Pageau 6 years $30M
Cal Clutterbuck 5 years $17.5M

Simply put, Lou rode Barry Trotz and .920 sv% goaltending to two final 4s. I suppose they can imitate Nashville and put up banners as Conference Finalists.

Lou didn't sign Clutterbuck to that deal and outside of slightly overpaying a ufa Palmieri the other deals are fine and better than giving Pistol Pete almost 4m x 3yrs , we can also talk how Dubie handed out deals that you knew weren't going to age well like Muzzin/Tavares

 

[Damisoph]

alarms have gone off and it's only a matter of time before the crew activates but i'll run a little interference for you since i have time this morning

still can't believe someone would trade a 1st plus plus for a washed up injured Foligno , lol , and a 3rd for a 3rd string rental goalie and late picks for Hutton and Nash , lol , all these assets out the door and not one of them gave us any value in the playoffs

can't believe how short sighted these moves were and how much we're going to pay for them in the future

ya the Foligno trade made little sense at the time and looks even worse in hindsight. Kadri deal as well, woof. Dubas' trade record is no bueno.

 

[Damisoph]

Lou didn't sign Clutterbuck to that deal and outside of slightly overpaying a ufa Palmieri the other deals are fine and better than giving Pistol Pete almost 4m x 3yrs , we can also talk how Dubie handed out deals that you knew weren't going to age well like Muzzin/Tavares deals

me pointing out Lou's faults is not an endorsement of Kyle Dubas. This forum is so toxic

 

[riffle]

One thing I don't understand about those who think it is crazy to discuss firing Kyle Dubas is this...

Mike Babcock was fired after his underdog Leafs lost to Washington, Boston and Boston. Not favored in any of those series and fans were livid they'd seen their team lose 3 series in a row.

Keefe and Dubas teams didn't even make the playoffs in Year 1. They lost in a "play in" not "playoff" series and were favored vs. CBJ. The next season they followed up with blowing a 3-1 series lead after finishing 1st in the Canadian division to a team that finished 18th in the league. Babcock's teams did objectively "better" than the Keefe/Dubas teams. Losing 3 tough series when you're inferior, vs. blowing 2 series when you're superior is not debatable. Yes, there is the excuse Keefe's team didn't have a TC with Keefe, but Dubas was still there.

Yes, you can argue Babcock's firing was about other things, but the fact remains he did not win a series and was fired. Why would you continue on with Kyle if his team drops yet another 1st round series?

If Dubas and company can't win one this season, that's 3 years in a row of losing. Not sure how you justify there not being a major shakeup unless you believe in the long game and winning by hopeful attrition of Boston, Tampa and now Florida.

I like Kyle Dubas. I love winning a whole lot more. And, winning doesn't mean in the regular season. For his sake, I hope he gets a series win and ends speculation about his job security. If the Leafs lose again, I can't fathom how his firing isn't at least a very debatable topic.

 

[4thline]

You are not wrong. The error was misjudging the team that he went all in on. Kind of like Burkie thinking Kessel was the mission g piece and giving up 2 1sts and a 2nd.

Nothing alike on two fronts

Teams give up comparable value at the deadline all the time, and only one wins each year. Unless you're completely against all rentals (some are) you expect that a GM of repeat playoff team is going to have some asset attrition. Just can't spend the team into the basement. And need to keep a steady pipeline.

The value lost and magnitude of the mistake are not at all the same. The cumulative value of everything Dubas spent last season is closer to the Knight pick (32nd) alone than 2nd overall PLUS 9th overall PLUS 32nd overall

 

[TheDoldrums]

Counterpoint- Lou Lam drafted franchise #1C Auston Matthews for the Leafs and now his 50 goals in 50 games as the best pure goal scorer in the game is helping the Leafs to wins, and is now the success wave Kyle Dubas & Sheldon Keefe are riding.

Unless Lou rigged the lottery I'm not sure why he would get any credit for drafting Auston Matthews lol. The team was already on a path to tanking before he was hired.

 

[hotpaws]

Kyle's fanboys are trying to forget this. Every GM makes mistakes. Kyle is lucky nobody holds him accountable because MLSEL prints money. Try burying Ritchie and Mrazeks contracts if you are a GM of a budget team.

what i also like is when they say Dubie is playing the long game while Lou sold the future for the short term when it's Dubie who has traded as much if not more futures . lol

and it's funny how some ignore Dubie inherited M and M , Willie/Rielly among others while Lou walked into Barzal and according to the Tavrares fan club a group of echl'ers he had to carry on his back for a decade

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I see we are back to Lou vs Kyle. LOL. I see arguments for both sides but until Kyle wins a series (0 for 3 and failed to close out all 3 series), embarrassing belittling Lou who has 2 cup rings and how many series win with the Isles to prop up Kyle.

Kyle is at the top of the world today as his team is top 5 in the standings but in the end Kyle will be judged by his playoff success and he is currently at zero. I'd wait until we win a series before attacking Lou.

How many decades back does one go to rest on laurels? Fletcher was great in 93. Stunk it up royal for decades afterwards. Not impossible to acknowledge both .