Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Gary Nylund]

You would agree then that Bergevin > Lou yes? He actually built his core that got closer to a cup than Lou did.

I would strongly disagree. NYI got within one game of the finals where I think they would have been favourites, after beating TB who ended up winning back to back finals. That also wasn't their only deep run whereas MTL was a one year wonder. MTL made the finals that one time sure, but I never for a minute thought they actually had a chance of winning the cup. But whatever, when it comes to Lou vs Bergevin, my first thought is who cares?

Why are people so anxious to put down Lou? Seems like a sign of insecurity to me, at least I can't think of any other explanation.

 

[authentic]

Haha.

I was wondering the same thing. I setiously question if some will be upset if the Leafs have success in the playoffs as it would leave them nothing to complain about.

This might be the main reason I want them to win the Cup now

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Lou leaving yes. Dubas getting railed by the big 3 on their second deals, absolutely not. That is his only real mistake as a GM, by trusting players to be reasonable and fair and to pay at least some attention to what their comps were being paid. He had a plan which seemed to be starting with Willie and then working his way up to the other two and that was not a bad idea.

But when Willie decided he was Draisaitl and not Pastrnak and stuck to it until the absolute bitter end the choice is either deal the prick or make the best you can of things, Nice guy Kyle says we can and we will. And after that marathon its Marner up and the guy wants Tavares/Matthews money. And then comes AM after the other two have put the blocks to poor Dubas you end up with what they got. Short terms. massive front loading, and nothing in return from the player. Yes it was a rookie GM thing but also an initiation into the essential greed of agents and the players who want to absolve themselves of any responsibility. As Willie sated, "I just wanted to get what I could".

And the Leafs are currently sitting with the third best record in the League.

 

[Gabriel426]

You would agree then that Bergevin > Lou yes? He actually built his core that got closer to a cup than Lou did.

Last time I checked, Lou won CUPS with the Devils.

 

[Gabriel426]

I don't think you need to put down someone in order to prove another person is better.
But thats just me

 

[zeke]

my comment on 3 on 3 points had nothing to do with the Leafs or any other team , i just meant that they along with shoot out points had the same valve since they distort how the games have always been decided and still are in the playoffs

sorry for you getting activated on a false alarm

Ah so your point was just a deflection and not actually a point. Makes sense.

Obviously SO are luck and have no bearing on teambuilding, while 3 on 3 is not quite that....but whatever, let's say they're the same.

If we decide to call all OT games ties, here's the progression:

16-17: 33-27-22, 88pts
17-18: 37-26-19, 93pts
18-19: 40-28-14, 94pts
19-20: 28-25-17, 86pts pace (68pts pace w/Babs, 94pts pace w/Keefe)
20-21: 29-14-13, 104pts pace
21-22: 43-20-14, 107pts pace

 

[TheRumble]

Lou was a good GM for the Leafs. Did a lot of good things here.

The reason why his mistakes are magnified is because there's a very loud contingent of Lou Stans in Leaf Nation that seems to think if he was still the GM:

Matthews would be on a 8x8 deal.

Marner would be on a 8x6 deal.

Nylander would have been traded for Cale Makar

We'd have Shesterkin instead of Campbell.

Lou was a good GM but he made a lot of very visible mistakes that needed to be fixed as well like the Marleau and Zaitsev contracts. That cost the team Connor Brown and a first.

 

[deprw]

Nobody would be laughing if they won the cup, and they came pretty damn close.

Don't misunderstand me, I wanted Dubas to get the job and I'm happy that that's what happened and I'm not looking for "alternatives". I'm just saying that laughing at what Lou has done with the NYI is well, laughable.

Well, he did got close, but I don't see people here that would happy about being close and crashing out right after. It was a gamble and they will pay consequences now. If he'd won that would be other story. It wasn't sustainable and that's the problem.

His best move was acquiring Barry Trotz, that isn't available option for anyone. It's like drafting Crosby. Opportunity that present itself. Other than that, is there something to build on what Lou has brought in?

You can laugh at Lous moves, but you can admire his resume and "results". I don't think ECF 7th game and crashing to be non relevant would be applauded here. They're in the Death Valley right now.

In the place where we were for a decade. Reminiscing Gretzkys high stick to Gilmour and Arturs Irbes miracle run against us. From Tucker crashing Kapanen to Roenicks goal and into the abyss of mediocrity and aging roster of grinders.

 

[deprw]

Why are people so anxious to put down Lou? Seems like a sign of insecurity to me, at least I can't think of any other explanation.

I don't think we have to put down Lou and I don't want to put down Lou as GM for us. He changed our culture and we should always be thankful about that. I would have welcomed him as a senior executive for us like was planned.

Narrative has been for some, that we should have kept Lou. He played his role here and was perfect for it, but this is organization that needs vision for decade. Lou can't be here that long, so it was time for change.

Lou wasted assets with Devils, did it here and wasted those even more with NYI. Dubas has fixed most of the problems he inherited and improved areas like defense a lot. I think we'll see in next two seasons if Andersen was more of a gift or a curse.

Discussing about these isn't insecurity. It's hockey talk. If he'd thrown out Toews here, he would have been crucified. EFC or not. NYI was one of those organizations that benefited from COVID. 2019-2020 would have been way different for them without COVID.

 

[ACC1224]

I would strongly disagree. NYI got within one game of the finals where I think they would have been favourites, after beating TB who ended up winning back to back finals. That also wasn't their only deep run whereas MTL was a one year wonder. MTL made the finals that one time sure, but I never for a minute thought they actually had a chance of winning the cup. But whatever, when it comes to Lou vs Bergevin, my first thought is who cares?

Why are people so anxious to put down Lou? Seems like a sign of insecurity to me, at least I can't think of any other explanation.

This.
It’s another weird phenomenon of this place.

 

[ACC1224]

Lou was a good GM for the Leafs. Did a lot of good things here.

The reason why his mistakes are magnified is because there's a very loud contingent of Lou Stans in Leaf Nation that seems to think if he was still the GM:

Matthews would be on a 8x8 deal.

Marner would be on a 8x6 deal.

Nylander would have been traded for Cale Makar

We'd have Shesterkin instead of Campbell.

Lou was a good GM but he made a lot of very visible mistakes that needed to be fixed as well like the Marleau and Zaitsev contracts. That cost the team Connor Brown and a first.

Looks more like people make up ridiculous scenarios and then assign it to a fictitious group.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Looks more like people make up ridiculous scenarios and then assign it to a fictitious group.

No doubt about that. I would sure like to meet the people who cheer for the GM over the team!

 

[conFABulator]

Looks more like people make up ridiculous scenarios and then assign it to a fictitious group.

Lou was a very important part of this rebuild. Not only was he at the helm for the acquisition of some of the guys that are very important now, he also brought much needed credibility and stability to the role and the organization.

Having said this, I believe Lou gets a free pass on his performance grades because of his legacy and reputation. I like Lou and he obviously has a history of results, but hasn't won a cup in almost 20 years and his last cup final was 8 years ago.

Since then he has made some questionable moves to be sure and these almost always result in his teams having cap trouble. He values the veterans and intangibles and maybe that can be a strategy that pays off, but it hasn't in a while for Lou and IMO his current Islanders are getting further from the Stanley Cup rather than closer.

He had a lot of money and term tied up in guys like Lee, Bailey, Pageau, and Palmeiri but had to bridge Barzal (that will become expensive) and give away Toews and possibly soon Mayfield. His goalies are $9M of mediocre. There are lot of questionable cap moves for sure. The prospect pipeline is not exactly stocked either.

He was brought in to give the Leafs stability and to mentor and bridge time until Dubas was ready, that's why I believe was always Shanny's plan. He did a good job, but he is not responsible for signing any of the core 4 and left Dubas somewhat handcuffed in signing 3 of them. Could they have been singed earlier? He also left us Marleau and Zaitsev. Those are two of the worst Leaf contracts of the past 20 years.

 

[Dreakmur]

Lou was a good GM but he made a lot of very visible mistakes that needed to be fixed as well like the Marleau and Zaitsev contracts. That cost the team Connor Brown and a first.

You have to view those contracts in the context in which they were signed. Those contracts only became problems when the new GM had a new plan. Signing Tavares ended the rebuild and warped our cap distribution.

The Zaitsev contract was a too long, but 4.5 for a good second pair defensemen isn’t a contract you try to unload unless you have other cap problems. He would actually be really nice to have right about now - certainly much better than Lyubushkin or Holl.

Marleau was a player that we would have helped the Leafs in that third year. That was supposed to be the last year of the rebuild, and he still have a lot to give off the ice. 6 million only because a burden after you sign an 11 million dollar second line center.

 

[4thline]

Of the three teams Lou has helmed in the cap era he had full control of 2 more than 2 seasons. Both of those teams has decent playoff runs. Both of those teams also
-cap locked themselves on mediocre or worse talent
-hemorrhaged assets in the pursuit of repeating those playoff runs even when the writing was on the wall that the team wasn't good enough
-failed to reliable bring in good young players via draft and recruitment
-had long gradual slides into futility*

*current one starting its tip over

Leaving LouLam in charge was embracing the Quinn years 2.0. Fun for a couple of runs, but not viable long term in the cap era.

That being said, maybe with the better base in Toronto he could have delivered, the stability and credibility he brought helped us avoid a Buffalo like fate, and I'll echo the sentiment that he would have been a great asset to have in an advisory role to help carry out someone else's vision.

 

[ACC1224]

Lou was a very important part of this rebuild. Not only was he at the helm for the acquisition of some of the guys that are very important now, he also brought much needed credibility and stability to the role and the organization.

Having said this, I believe Lou gets a free pass on his performance grades because of his legacy and reputation. I like Lou and he obviously has a history of results, but hasn't won a cup in almost 20 years and his last cup final was 8 years ago.

Since then he has made some questionable moves to be sure and these almost always result in his teams having cap trouble. He values the veterans and intangibles and maybe that can be a strategy that pays off, but it hasn't in a while for Lou and IMO his current Islanders are getting further from the Stanley Cup rather than closer.

He had a lot of money and term tied up in guys like Lee, Bailey, Pageau, and Palmeiri but had to bridge Barzal (that will become expensive) and give away Toews and possibly soon Mayfield. His goalies are $9M of mediocre. There are lot of questionable cap moves for sure. The prospect pipeline is not exactly stocked either.

He was brought in to give the Leafs stability and to mentor and bridge time until Dubas was ready, that's why I believe was always Shanny's plan. He did a good job, but he is not responsible for signing any of the core 4 and left Dubas somewhat handcuffed in signing 3 of them. Could they have been singed earlier? He also left us Marleau and Zaitsev. Those are two of the worst Leaf contracts of the past 20 years.

I’m sure like 99.9% of Leaf fans I couldn’t care less what kind of job he’s doing on the Island.

 

[Gutchecktime]

Lou was a very important part of this rebuild. Not only was he at the helm for the acquisition of some of the guys that are very important now, he also brought much needed credibility and stability to the role and the organization.

Having said this, I believe Lou gets a free pass on his performance grades because of his legacy and reputation. I like Lou and he obviously has a history of results, but hasn't won a cup in almost 20 years and his last cup final was 8 years ago.

Since then he has made some questionable moves to be sure and these almost always result in his teams having cap trouble. He values the veterans and intangibles and maybe that can be a strategy that pays off, but it hasn't in a while for Lou and IMO his current Islanders are getting further from the Stanley Cup rather than closer.

He had a lot of money and term tied up in guys like Lee, Bailey, Pageau, and Palmeiri but had to bridge Barzal (that will become expensive) and give away Toews and possibly soon Mayfield. His goalies are $9M of mediocre. There are lot of questionable cap moves for sure. The prospect pipeline is not exactly stocked either.

He was brought in to give the Leafs stability and to mentor and bridge time until Dubas was ready, that's why I believe was always Shanny's plan. He did a good job, but he is not responsible for signing any of the core 4 and left Dubas somewhat handcuffed in signing 3 of them. Could they have been singed earlier? He also left us Marleau and Zaitsev. Those are two of the worst Leaf contracts of the past 20 years.

Organization has mostly been completely purged of anything brought in during Lou’s time here aside from Liljegren and Matthews. Right down to development and scouting staff. All either brought in when Shanny got here, while Dubas was co-GM, or after Lou left.

Surprised me a little to look through our organization and barely find evidence he was here.

 

[TheRumble]

I’m sure like 99.9% of Leaf fans I couldn’t care less what kind of job he’s doing on the Island.

If you don't know or follow other teams in thee league to see what their coaches and GMs are doing, you don't know enough to be speaking on matters of whether or not anyone is a good GM/coach.

I'm a hockey fans who's favourite team is the Leafs.

You're a Leafs fan who doesn't watch hockey when the Leafs aren't playing.

So learn to be humble and shut up. You might learn a thing or two. Or you can sit back and be a snarky smartass and be look stupid.

 

[hotpaws]

No doubt about that. I would sure like to meet the people who cheer for the GM over the team!

just look for the posters who keep saying the players need to reward Dubas for his faith in them , like without Dubie they'd working at their local Tim Hortons and out of hockey , lol

 

[Leaf Fans]

just look for the posters who keep saying the players need to reward Dubas for his faith in them , like without Dubie they'd working at their local Tim Hortons and out of hockey , lol

Yeah, I don't think anyone would believe that nor do I think that people who say that players have to reward Dubas for his faith in them necessarily suport the GM over the team.

 

[hotpaws]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would believe that nor do I think that people who say that players have to reward Dubas for his faith in them necessarily suport the GM over the team.

it's obvious the players need to come through in the playoffs since the ultimate goal is winning the cup but why say they have to to do well to reward the GM unless you put him above the team ?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Well, he did got close, but I don't see people here that would happy about being close and crashing out right after. It was a gamble and they will pay consequences now. If he'd won that would be other story. It wasn't sustainable and that's the problem.

His best move was acquiring Barry Trotz, that isn't available option for anyone. It's like drafting Crosby. Opportunity that present itself. Other than that, is there something to build on what Lou has brought in?

You can laugh at Lous moves, but you can admire his resume and "results". I don't think ECF 7th game and crashing to be non relevant would be applauded here. They're in the Death Valley right now.

In the place where we were for a decade. Reminiscing Gretzkys high stick to Gilmour and Arturs Irbes miracle run against us. From Tucker crashing Kapanen to Roenicks goal and into the abyss of mediocrity and aging roster of grinders.

Pretty much it in a nutshell. Barry Trotz is literally the only thing that makes NYI a playoff team (or at least bubble) and over a full 82 games, even Barry Trotz will struggle to turn them into a playoff team. Lou is short term GM who does not plan or execute for the future. Winning the Stanley Cup hinges a lot on luck. From health, to bounces to peaking at the right time etc. You need to give yourself as many legitimate chances as you possibly can. It is literally surprising to no one that the moment a full 82 game schedule appears (where cream rises to the top as datasets have time to do what datasets do), NYI and NYI lite (Montreal) fall out of the playoff picture .....the top 2 "GM of the Year" don't even make the playoffs. There's a couple things Lou does well but he's the last guy you want if you are trying to build something long term.

 

[Leaf Fans]

it's obvious the players need to come through in the playoffs since the ultimate goal is winning the cup but why say they have to to do well to reward the GM unless you put him above the team ?

I am not a fan who has said that. I am in the same boat as you that is I don't know. I am certainly not going to make up a reason.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Last time I checked, Lou won CUPS with the Devils.

Decades ago, in an entirely different NHL with no cap**

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, he did got close, but I don't see people here that would happy about being close and crashing out right after. It was a gamble and they will pay consequences now. If he'd won that would be other story. It wasn't sustainable and that's the problem.

His best move was acquiring Barry Trotz, that isn't available option for anyone. It's like drafting Crosby. Opportunity that present itself. Other than that, is there something to build on what Lou has brought in?

You can laugh at Lous moves, but you can admire his resume and "results". I don't think ECF 7th game and crashing to be non relevant would be applauded here. They're in the Death Valley right now.

In the place where we were for a decade. Reminiscing Gretzkys high stick to Gilmour and Arturs Irbes miracle run against us. From Tucker crashing Kapanen to Roenicks goal and into the abyss of mediocrity and aging roster of grinders.

Not being sustainable wouldn't have been problem if he had won and he came pretty damn close is all I'm saying. Also that run with Gilmour was awesome, we had a real shot at the cup that year and that's nothing to sneeze at as it was the closest we've come in 50+ years.

Lou and Dubas took different approaches. Lou went short term, it didn't pay off but came pretty damn close. Whether the approach taken by Dubas pays off remains to be seen, we can only hope. Lou also started from a much worse position than Dubas did considering we had M&M, Rielly, Nylander etc. and then took Tavares from NYI leaving them with Barzal and not much else. Considering that they came so close to the cup just shortly afterwards is remarkable.

I don't think we have to put down Lou and I don't want to put down Lou as GM for us. He changed our culture and we should always be thankful about that. I would have welcomed him as a senior executive for us like was planned.

Narrative has been for some, that we should have kept Lou. He played his role here and was perfect for it, but this is organization that needs vision for decade. Lou can't be here that long, so it was time for change.

Lou wasted assets with Devils, did it here and wasted those even more with NYI. Dubas has fixed most of the problems he inherited and improved areas like defense a lot. I think we'll see in next two seasons if Andersen was more of a gift or a curse.

Discussing about these isn't insecurity. It's hockey talk. If he'd thrown out Toews here, he would have been crucified. EFC or not. NYI was one of those organizations that benefited from COVID. 2019-2020 would have been way different for them without COVID.

I'm not one of those who thinks we should have kept Lou, not even close. Keeping him would have been a mistake but at the same time, belittling what he's done with NYI is just dumb. As usual, I can't agree with the extremists on either side and am comfortable being more in the middle so to speak - I'm glad we chose Dubas over Lou, but I respect the work Lou has done both here and with the NYI and the people calling him an idiot or whatever should maybe take a good look in the mirror.