Kyle Dubas discussion II

[TMLegend]

Love these guys now trying to pretend that they haven't been bringing up Lou to insult Kyle all these years now.

Do you think they convince themselves?

Usually it's the Dubas fans that bring up Lou in topics, just an fyi.

 

[zeke]

Usually it's the Dubas fans that bring up Lou in topics, just an fyi.

If you say it enough times it changes the actual history.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Love these guys now trying to pretend that they haven't been bringing up Lou to insult Kyle all these years now.

Do you think they convince themselves?

Come on now, they had a good point. Kyle could learn a thing or two from the master of "building from the net out". So Doobler brought in a couple no name D, Lou brings in HHOF legends like Chara to play on his top pair. He also got.. uh Hainsey and Zaitsev.. and Andy Greene?

So maybe Lou is picky and hasn't been able to bring in a single significant defensive piece in over a decade, the more important thing is he's a master of addition by subtraction, getting rid of trash like Phaneuf and Towes for nothing.

 

[zeke]

Come on now, they had a good point. Kyle could learn a thing or two from the master of "building from the net out". So Doobler brought in a couple no name D, Lou brings in HHOF legends like Chara to play on his top pair. He also got.. uh Hainsey and Zaitsev.. and Andy Greene?

So maybe Lou is picky and hasn't been able to bring in a single significant defensive piece in over a decade, the more important thing is he's a master of addition by subtraction, getting rid of trash like Phaneuf and Towes for nothing.

 

[TMLegend]

If you say it enough times it changes the actual history.

Lol. Whatever you say, Mr. impartial. I don't think Leaf related history is something you wanna talk about personally.

 

[zeke]

Lol. Whatever you say, Mr. impartial. I don't think Leaf related history is something you wanna talk about personally.

That's because just like you've twisted thr Lou Takes history in your mind, you've also twisted the Zeke Takes.

There's a reason why so many here have been so wrong about these leafs....and they will again decide to misremember history instead of ever admitting they were wrong.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

All I know is that if we defeat Tampa, we will all be in here having a good chuckle at a couple poster's expense They know who they are!

 

[deprw]

If we just could move forward this constant babble about changing the GM. Best Leafs team in decades and we argue, that if we lose playoffs series we should reset or something. We haven't progressed in playoffs but our organization and team is moving forward into right direction. Why can't we be happy about that?

 

[TMLegend]

That's because just like you've twisted thr Lou Takes history in your mind, you've also twisted the Zeke Takes.

There's a reason why so many here have been so wrong about these leafs....and they will again decide to misremember history instead of ever admitting they were wrong.

Alright. I'll humor you. What has been misremembered according to Zeke?

 

[Jojalu]

It is kind of funny watching individual and team records drop left, right and centre yet watching tantrums. I would like to think playoff success would solve that but I doubt it.

Haha.

I was wondering the same thing. I setiously question if some will be upset if the Leafs have success in the playoffs as it would leave them nothing to complain about.

 

[ACC1224]

I'd say it's more "worship" than "love".

Living Legend

 

[Gary Nylund]

Come on now, they had a good point. Kyle could learn a thing or two from the master of "building from the net out". So Doobler brought in a couple no name D, Lou brings in HHOF legends like Chara to play on his top pair. He also got.. uh Hainsey and Zaitsev.. and Andy Greene?

So maybe Lou is picky and hasn't been able to bring in a single significant defensive piece in over a decade, the more important thing is he's a master of addition by subtraction, getting rid of trash like Phaneuf and Towes for nothing.

Making fun of Lou is all the rage these days but his team came within one win of taking out TB and going to the finals where they're probably favourites to win. That game 7 was a good one too, they fought hard and IIRC the final score was 1-0 (or maybe an empty netter, not sure) but man they played great, nothing at all like the game 7's where the Leafs have been thrashed 4 straight years. They came pretty close to winning the cup and considering where he started from, that would have really been something. It didn't quite work out for him and he gambled the future to "win now" so they're not in great shape now but had they won, the narrative would be very different. The people disrespecting him today are either myopic to the nth degree, or they're putting him down in order to make their hero Dubas stand a bit taller. These posters taking shots at Lou now don't have any respect for him and that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion but it's a position that I don't have any respect for myself. He gambled the future to take a shot, that's very common in NA pro sports so what's to make fun of? He took his shot, it didn't work out but it came oh so close to paying off big time and IMHO, you have to respect that more than just a little bit.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I think Dubas is a generational GM, in line with Sather, Ross and Pollock. He has done everything needed by a GM: shored up defense, drafted wisely, and, save for a few weeks in winter, fixed our goaltending. Its up to the players to execute. No excuses. Looking towards the future, even if Matthews leaves in 2 years, its important that Dubas keep learning on the go in order to finish the job. Players come and go, but generational management is hard to find.

WHY DID YOU DRAFT JEFF WARE???

"no harm in giving them the credit they deserve" that's a very strange way to put it , lol

i'm also still interested in your opinion on whether BriseBois/Bowman and Rutherford should get all the credit for building there cup winning teams like your giving to Dubas for this years Leafs team ?

They should. The existing roster was theirs the second they got the job and they won with whoever they kept. The previous guys didn't.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Making fun of Lou is all the rage these days but his team came within one win of taking out TB and going to the finals where they're probably favourites to win. That game 7 was a good one too, they fought hard and IIRC the final score was 1-0 (or maybe an empty netter, not sure) but man they played great, nothing at all like the game 7's where the Leafs have been thrashed 4 straight years. They came pretty close to winning the cup and considering where he started from, that would have really been something. It didn't quite work out for him and he gambled the future to "win now" so they're not in great shape now but had they won, the narrative would be very different. The people disrespecting him today are either myopic to the nth degree, or they're putting him down in order to make their hero Dubas stand a bit taller. These posters taking shots at Dubas now don't have any respect for him and that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion but it's a position that I don't have any respect for myself. He gambled the future to take a shot, that's very common in NA pro sports so what's to make fun of? He took his shot, it didn't work out but it came oh so close to paying off big time and IMHO, you have to respect that more than just a little bit.

That is the nature of pro sports, especially the NHL. Always go for it when the iron is hot because the opportunity may not return anytime soon.

I had some battles with Hab fans last playoffs, I had been unhappy with their style of play for some time, specifically Weber. I warned them at the time, no lies, "enjoy this run now because you won't even be a playoff team next year".

Obviously this Leafs team has to make steps, but I won't be happy until there is a Cup. I've made peace that I probably won't ever see a Cup winner in my lifetime even as I remain an optimist by nature. Like so many Cubs or Bosox fans didn't see a WS win, and many older Leafs fans who missed the '67 year.

So, just win one Cup and let the party begin for so may who have loyally supported this team, most of us not by choice but by indoctrination handed down from our Fathers and friends.

This can be their year and none of them should accept any shortcuts, from the players on out. It's why I want a physical lineup that will lay it all on the line instead of hoping that outskilling the opponent alone will get it done, "honestly, this time we will really outskill them".

Balance is available, use it please.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Making fun of Lou is all the rage these days but his team came within one win of taking out TB and going to the finals where they're probably favourites to win. That game 7 was a good one too, they fought hard and IIRC the final score was 1-0 (or maybe an empty netter, not sure) but man they played great, nothing at all like the game 7's where the Leafs have been thrashed 4 straight years. They came pretty close to winning the cup and considering where he started from, that would have really been something. It didn't quite work out for him and he gambled the future to "win now" so they're not in great shape now but had they won, the narrative would be very different. The people disrespecting him today are either myopic to the nth degree, or they're putting him down in order to make their hero Dubas stand a bit taller. These posters taking shots at Dubas now don't have any respect for him and that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion but it's a position that I don't have any respect for myself. He gambled the future to take a shot, that's very common in NA pro sports so what's to make fun of? He took his shot, it didn't work out but it came oh so close to paying off big time and IMHO, you have to respect that more than just a little bit.

That "shooting his shot" amounted to overpaying for Pageau and some grinders, that's what's funny. The master of building defense has the corpses of Chara and Greene playing serious minutes, pretty funny imo. Who's the best defenseman Lou has acquired since 2012? Is it Hainsey and Zaitsev neck and neck for best defenseman that Lou acquired this decade? Marleau vs Palmieri vs Pageau for best forward?

His body of actual trades and signings this decade vs his reputation is very funny I would say. Before you tell me about his ECF again, may I offer a better alternative? Bergevin went further than Lou did, I think he's still available.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That "shooting his shot" amounted to overpaying for Pageau and some grinders, that's what's funny. The master of building defense has the corpses of Chara and Greene playing serious minutes, pretty funny imo. Who's the best defenseman Lou has acquired since 2012? Is it Hainsey and Zaitsev neck and neck for best defenseman that Lou acquired this decade? Marleau vs Palmieri vs Pageau for best forward?

His body of actual trades and signings this decade vs his reputation is very funny I would say. Before you tell me about his ECF again, may I offer a better alternative? Bergevin went further than Lou did, I think he's still available.

Nobody would be laughing if they won the cup, and they came pretty damn close.

Don't misunderstand me, I wanted Dubas to get the job and I'm happy that that's what happened and I'm not looking for "alternatives". I'm just saying that laughing at what Lou has done with the NYI is well, laughable.

 

[nuck]

They may still yet be. The problem with folks looking at those two models is they don't understand that the young stars were virtually the final pieces while ours came at the start of the rebuild, hence you have to wait a bit for the other pieces to arrive and the young to mature.

I think last season was the first time the Leafs measured up to those early Pens and Hawks teams, and injuries and Price derailed what might have been their year. Of course Mitch and AM were also supposed to have Crosby/Kane playoffs but couldn't bring it when they were needed to. I think I still blame that on Keefe's overuse because I don't believe players suddenly become less talented in the post season. Its not possible because it presumes other guys are not trying the best until the the playoffs, and that other teams weren't doing their absolute best to shut down Marner and Matthews during every regular season game. Its a game of inches and when you take out JT, Muzz and fatigue the two best forwards you have, then shit happens. Anyways they are playing a minute less a night so Keefe may agree with that.

If we assume Muzzin is damaged, and not suddenly old, and that Campbell can be capable of a strong if not great playoff run, then KD has built what we wanted this team to be. How would we feel if we had last seasons Muzzin in the lineup? Sure Dubas gambled by not making any significant playoff adds but that hasn't cost them a series yet. He knows better the inner workings of the players we are worried about so we have to think there is a reasonable chance he expects a healthy playoff lineup. Can't slag him until the end of round one folks. We are 3rd overall and I am not worried as long as Matthews comes back healthy.

 

[BertCorbeau]

they say as much as 3 on 3 points

Is this year's Leaf team getting an atypical number of points in the standings from 3 on 3?

They're 8-6 in OT this year and 1-0 in the shootout. They have 43 wins in regulation.

The 17/18 Leafs were 12-7 in OT that season and 7-2 in the shootout. They had 30 wins in regulation. If I have the right data.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Its a results oriented business not a transactional review, so like you I agree it will come done to how this team performs in the playoffs that will be the ultimate measure of GM performance.

Dubas walked into the job inheriting a 100+ point playoff team, and a hard faught 7 game playoff round #1 loss to Boston, while being handed the keys to perhaps the Leafs team's all-time franchise best player Auston Matthews and a perennial 50 goal scorer from his predecessor to build upon.

Marner, Matthews and Nylander were all on ELCs giving the previous GM lots of cap to play with while Dubas has had to sign these three and has still managed to improve the team, very impressive.
Looking at the Islanders it's obvious they made the right choice dumping Lou.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Nobody would be laughing if they won the cup, and they came pretty damn close.

Don't misunderstand me, I wanted Dubas to get the job and I'm happy that that's what happened and I'm not looking for "alternatives". I'm just saying that laughing at what Lou has done with the NYI is well, laughable.

You would agree then that Bergevin > Lou yes? He actually built his core that got closer to a cup than Lou did.

 

[hotpaws]

Is this year's Leaf team getting an atypical number of points in the standings from 3 on 3?

They're 8-6 in OT this year and 1-0 in the shootout. They have 43 wins in regulation.

The 17/18 Leafs were 12-7 in OT that season and 7-2 in the shootout. They had 30 wins in regulation. If I have the right data.

my comment on 3 on 3 points had nothing to do with the Leafs or any other team , i just meant that they along with shoot out points had the same valve since they distort how the games have always been decided and still are in the playoffs

sorry for you getting activated on a false alarm

 

[nuck]

Marner, Matthews and Nylander were all on ELCs giving the previous GM lots of cap to play with while Dubas has had to sign these three and has still managed to improve the team, very impressive.
Looking at the Islanders it's obvious they made the right choice dumping Lou.

Lou leaving yes. Dubas getting railed by the big 3 on their second deals, absolutely not. That is his only real mistake as a GM, by trusting players to be reasonable and fair and to pay at least some attention to what their comps were being paid. He had a plan which seemed to be starting with Willie and then working his way up to the other two and that was not a bad idea.

But when Willie decided he was Draisaitl and not Pastrnak and stuck to it until the absolute bitter end the choice is either deal the prick or make the best you can of things, Nice guy Kyle says we can and we will. And after that marathon its Marner up and the guy wants Tavares/Matthews money. And then comes AM after the other two have put the blocks to poor Dubas you end up with what they got. Short terms. massive front loading, and nothing in return from the player. Yes it was a rookie GM thing but also an initiation into the essential greed of agents and the players who want to absolve themselves of any responsibility. As Willie sated, "I just wanted to get what I could".

 

[Nylanderthal]

You said:

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

Aren't you claiming the Leafs preferred shorter deals for the big three and then an 8 year extension rather than 2, 8 year deals??

Yea, and two eight year terms pushes them beyond their primes, thus Managment being better off with medium then long term deals

 

[Nylanderthal]

I haven't said anything regarding his next deal. Poster says Leafs prefer 5/6 and 8 year deals rather with their big RFAs rather than 8 and 8. This is simply not true as they clearly wanted 8 years for all 3. Matty was probably the only one wanting 8 but took 5 to reduce the AAV. Poster is now claimimg that Dubas was a genius for giving them the shorter deal now and will sign them for 8 when the deals are up. This is simply not true.

If you do not understand and still think I am being disingenuous, please put me on ignore and do not respond because I am done with this.

You can just call me by name. Yes it’s smart business for both parties for different reasons to go medium term now then long term on the UFA deal. Im sure all three guys would’ve signed for 8 if there was a common ground to be found on those terms. I don’t get how this is confusing for you? Unless it’s that giving the current leafs brass any sort of tip of the cap is beyond one’s capabilities.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Lou leaving yes. Dubas getting railed by the big 3 on their second deals, absolutely not. That is his only real mistake as a GM, by trusting players to be reasonable and fair and to pay at least some attention to what their comps were being paid. He had a plan which seemed to be starting with Willie and then working his way up to the other two and that was not a bad idea.

But when Willie decided he was Draisaitl and not Pastrnak and stuck to it until the absolute bitter end the choice is either deal the prick or make the best you can of things, Nice guy Kyle says we can and we will. And after that marathon its Marner up and the guy wants Tavares/Matthews money. And then comes AM after the other two have put the blocks to poor Dubas you end up with what they got. Short terms. massive front loading, and nothing in return from the player. Yes it was a rookie GM thing but also an initiation into the essential greed of agents and the players who want to absolve themselves of any responsibility. As Willie sated, "I just wanted to get what I could".

Willy caved and ended up signing a pasta comparable deal tho.