Kyle Dubas discussion II

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i think i'll give Gilliam and Pridum the credit since i keep reading it['s really the agm that runs the team
You keep posting it is really the agm that runs the team, but you keep reading that the agm is a part of the management team. So, yes, part of the credit does go to Gillman and Pridham. Dubas himself as said so. In fact, he has gone out of the way to praise them especially Pridham who is the salary cap expert on the team. While Gillman has been promoted and serves as Senior Vice President with the Marlies and is still agm with the Leafs. Of course they deserve their share of the credit for building the team.
 
Of course it’s his team. It’s why he’ll be accountable if they fail again.
 
i think i'll give Gilliam and Pridum the credit since i keep reading it['s really the agm that runs the team
No harm in giving Lawrence Gilman and Brandon Pridham the credit they deserve for being part of a successful management team as well. They have both been Assistant General Managers since May 2018, the same month that Kyle Dubas was appointed as the Leafs' General Manager.

You will recall that in addition to having been an Assistant General Manager, Dubas and Mark Hunter were also the Leafs' co-Interim General Managers from April to July 2015, after Dave Nonis was relieved of his duties and until Lou Lamoriello was hired. Together, Dubas and Hunter were jointly responsible for the Leafs' selections in the 2015 amateur entry draft, and that was a higher degree of responsibility.

Otherwise, Dubas certainly deserves the same degree of credit for his role as an Assistant General Manager as his current assistants deserve now.

I think they're all on the same team!
 
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No harm in giving Lawrence Gilman and Brandon Pridham the credit they deserve for being part of a successful management team as well. They have both been Assistant General Managers since May 2018, the same month that Kyle Dubas was appointed as the Leafs' General Manager.

You will recall that in addition to having been an Assistant General Manager, Dubas and Mark Hunter were also the Leafs' co-Interim General Managers from April to July 2015, after Dave Nonis was relieved of his duties and until Lou Lamoriello was hired. Together, Dubas and Hunter were jointly responsible for the Leafs' selections in the 2015 amateur entry draft, and that was a higher degree of responsibility.

Otherwise, Dubas certainly deserves the same degree of credit for his role as an Assistant General Manager as his current assistants deserve now.

I think they're all on the same team!
"no harm in giving them the credit they deserve" that's a very strange way to put it , lol

i'm also still interested in your opinion on whether BriseBois/Bowman and Rutherford should get all the credit for building there cup winning teams like your giving to Dubas for this years Leafs team ?
 
Dubas is a quality GM.

I criticize some of his mistakes but I also want him to be the one to fix them. The same goes if they lose in round 1 again.

The way he's built up the depth, dealt with his mistakes, and drafted has shown he's good at his job.

No GM is perfect but Dubas is very good.

Yes. You can see how Dubas’ off-seasons and deadlines have taken a different approach year over year.

Dubas is a good GM. As you said, perfect? No, but no GM is. Expecting perfection is silly.

I don’t think Shanahan will dismiss Dubas should we falter in round 1 again, however it’s possible the board cleans house (again, I think thats doubtful).

However if one or the other happens, it’s pretty likely the next GM and/or President will be downgrades on what we have.
 
Yes. You can see how Dubas’ off-seasons and deadlines have taken a different approach year over year.

Dubas is a good GM. As you said, perfect? No, but no GM is. Expecting perfection is silly.

I don’t think Shanahan will dismiss Dubas should we falter in round 1 again, however it’s possible the board cleans house (again, I think thats doubtful).

However if one or the other happens, it’s pretty likely the next GM and/or President will be downgrades on what we have.
You mean this message board? ;)
 
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The reason the team has improved so much is that the core players, namely Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Reilly have all entered their peak years. Going from a ~65 point forward to a ~105 point forward will elevate the team, big time.

These guys were here before Dubas became GM, and were going to progress regardless of who was in charge. He gets no credit for them, or the 105 point team he inherited as a baseline. The real question is, how well did he do with the core’s contracts, and how well did he do filling out the rest of the team? Not very well, in my view.
About that 105-point team Dubas "inherited":

- I'm interested to know which defencemen among Jake Gardiner, Ron Hainsey, Nikita Zaitsev, Travis Dermott, Roman Polak, Calle Rosen, Connor Carrick, Andreas Borgman and Martin Marincin would you think were worth keeping and added to the value of the franchise?​
- The Leafs' defence was a known weakness, and the Dubas management team kept Morgan Rielly and Justin Holl, and eventually promoted Timothy Liljegren from within.​
- I think Dubas kept the right players, moved the ones that needed to be moved, and vastly improved the defence.​
- Just looking at the defence then and now, I don't think much of anything was handed to Dubas on a silver platter.​
- The same question about forwards James vanRiemsdyk, Patrick Marleau, Tyler Bozak, Zach Hyman, Connor Brown, Leo Komorov, Dominic Moore, Matt Martin, Kasperi Kapanen, Josh Leivo, Andreas Johansson, Thomas Plekanec, Fred Gauthier, Nikita Soshnikov and Eric Fehr? They kept Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, William Nylander, and Zach Hyman and also promoted Pierre Engvall from within. However, I think it's a fantasy to think that Dubas "inherited" a capable forward group that could possibly have been kept intact moving forward. The three good pieces were fantastic, but the rest of the group other than Hyman, Kadri and maybe Bozak was pretty much a mess. Not only that, but in April 2018 Nylander was still unsigned some ten months into his RFA negotiation window, which was unfortunate to say the least.​
- The Leafs were in much better shape in goal then than they are now, with a younger, better Fred Andersen signed long-term and a highly capable back-up Curtis McElhinney having been picked up off waivers. Goal was and continues to be the Achilles heel of Dubas' management, and it is a significant failure.​
On balance, I'm tired of the "105-point" mantra because it really doesn't hold water when you look at the actual rosters then and now. It took a lot of work to move from where the Leafs were then to where they are now.

Furthermore, if anyone should think that having Matthews, Marner and Nylander on ELC's and Rielly on a long-term team-friendly contract is an automatic ticket to success, then I suggest you read up on the progress of Connor McDavid, Leon Draisaitl, Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Darnell Nurse and Oscar Klefbom with another team; or on the success of Alexander Ovechkin and the Washington Capitals for the first ten years of his NHL career. You don't put these young stars in an Easy-Bake oven and expect them to come out perfectly formed ten minutes later. That aspect of roster-building and player-development takes work too, and it isn't automatic.
 
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Yes. You can see how Dubas’ off-seasons and deadlines have taken a different approach year over year.

Can you?

Year 1: Tavares, Muzzin, Ozhiganov, Lindholm, Ennis, Petan
Year 2: Campbell, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, Barrie, Ceci, Spezza, Clifford, Shore, Gravel, Aberg, Malgin
Year 3: Brodie, Foligno, Thornton, Simmonds, Bogosian, Barabanov, Lehtonen, Boyd, Vesey, Galchenyuk, Anderson, Hutton, Rittich
Year 4: Giordano, Bunting, Kampf, Kase, Mrazek, Blackwell, Ritchie, Lyubushkin, Amadio, Biega, Dahlstrom
 
"no harm in giving them the credit they deserve" that's a very strange way to put it , lol

i'm also still interested in your opinion on whether BriseBois/Bowman and Rutherford should get all the credit for building there cup winning teams like your giving to Dubas for this years Leafs team ?
I'm interested in your opinion on whether Kyle Dubas is a good GM.

I don't really follow teams other than the Leafs. I don't really give a shit about them, nor do I follow whether their management is good, bad or indifferent.

I don't know anyone, including myself, who would say that the entire success of the Toronto Maple Leafs (whatever that may be -- and to be honest it's not much to date) is owing to Kyle Dubas. A lot of people, including Lou Lamoriello, have had a hand in whatever success the Leafs have achieved.

The question here is what do you think of Kyle Dubas, and for my own part I think he's doing a pretty good job.

What do you think of his performance to date?
 
i think i'll give Gilliam and Pridum the credit since i keep reading it['s really the agm that runs the team
It’s Gilman & Pridham. Would it kill you to even get those guys names right? Bad news enough you can’t spell Kyle’s name properly either. Pretty disrespectful and telling it the individual
 
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About that 105-point team Dubas "inherited":

- I'm interested to know which defencemen among Jake Gardiner, Ron Hainsey, Nikita Zaitsev, Travis Dermott, Roman Polak, Calle Rosen, Connor Carrick, Andreas Borgman and Martin Marincin would you think were worth keeping and added to the value of the franchise?​
- The Leafs' defence was a known weakness, and the Dubas management team kept Morgan Rielly and Justin Holl, and eventually promoted Timothy Liljegren from within.​
- I think Dubas kept the right players, moved the ones that needed to be moved, and vastly improved the defence.​
- Just looking at the defence then and now, I don't think much of anything was handed to Dubas on a silver platter.​
- The same question about forwards James vanRiemsdyk, Patrick Marleau, Tyler Bozak, Zach Hyman, Connor Brown, Leo Komorov, Dominic Moore, Matt Martin, Kasperi Kapanen, Josh Leivo, Andreas Johansson, Thomas Plekanec, Fred Gauthier, Nikita Soshnikov and Eric Fehr? They kept Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and William Nylander, and also promoted Pierre Engvall from within. However, I think it's a fantasy to think that Dubas "inherited" a capable forward group that could possibly have been kept intact moving forward. The three good pieces were fantastic, but the rest of the group other than Kadri and maybe Bozak was pretty much a mess. Not only that, but in April 2018 Nylander was still unsigned some ten months into his RFA negotiation window, which was unfortunate to say the least.​
- The Leafs were in much better shape in goal then than they are now, with a younger, better Fred Andersen signed long-term and a highly capable back-up Curtis McElhinney having been picked up off waivers. Goal was and continues to be the Achilles heel of Dubas' management, and it is a significant failure.​

On balance, I'm tired of the "105-point" mantra because it really doesn't hold water when you look at the actual rosters then
and now. It took a lot of work to move from where the Leafs were then to where they are now.

Furthermore, if anyone should think that having Matthews, Marner and Nylander on ELC's and Rielly on a long-term team-friendly contract is an automatic ticket to success, then I suggest you read up on the progress of Connor McDavid, Leon Draisaitl, Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Darnell Nurse and Oscar Klefbom with another team; or on the success of Alexander Ovechkin and the Washington Capitals for the first ten years of his NHL career. You don't put these young stars in an Easy-Bake oven and expect them to come out perfectly formed ten minutes later. That aspect of roster-building and player-development takes work too, and it isn't automatic.
your tired of the 105 pt mantra ? why would a Leaf fan be tired of hearing about a successful season ?

the Leafs had instant success the day Mathews/Marner/Nylander entered the lineup and without those 3 we'd be competing with the dregs of the league

also wondering why you won't answer me about your feeling on BriseBois/Bowman and Rutherford and if they also deserve all the credit for building there cup teams
 
your tired of the 105 pt mantra ? why would a Leaf fan be tired of hearing about a successful season ?

the Leafs had instant success the day Mathews/Marner/Nylander entered the lineup and without those 3 we'd be competing with the dregs of the league

also wondering why you won't answer me about your feeling on BriseBois/Bowman and Rutherford and if they also deserve all the credit for building there cup teams
Question asked and answered.
 
It’s Gillman & Pridham. Would it kill you to even get those guys names right? Bad news enough you can’t spell Kyle’s name properly either. Pretty disrespectful and telling it the individual
i doubt they give a damn how i spell there names , lol

pretty disrespectful ? this coming from a person that runs around these boards calling people names
 
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Question asked and answered.
avoiding the question isn't answering it

and i really don't understand why your avoiding giving me an answer , going by your previous opinion you should be giving them all the credit since they like Dubas they get the credit for not trading their core pieces like Sid/Geno/Kuch/Hedman/Kane and Toews as well as the depth moves they made

i know how stupid it sounds to give credit to Rutherford for not trading Sid/Geno but hey that's the path that's been taken to try to make Dubies light shine brighter
 
because "105pts" doesn't accurately describe whatever "success" that team had that season.
when they started going by expected something something then we'll go by that standard by as of today it's what they measure teams by
 
because "105pts" doesn't accurately describe whatever "success" that team had that season.
it also doesn't describe the way the team was positioned for success going forward. It's not like any GM could have just kept things together and continued to build, since the three best players all went from ELCs to huge real contracts and the salary cap froze due to a pandemic
 
Again to refresh, standings without including shootout win lottery bonus points:

16-17: 94pts
17-18: 98pts
18-19: 100pts
19-20: 94pts pace (75pts pace w/Babs, 103pts pace w/Keefe)
20-21: 111pts pace
21-22: 115pts pace


Expected Goal Differential Per Game

16-17: +0.17 #10
17-18: +0.19 #10
----------------------------
18-19: +0.41 #4
19-20: +0.20 #7 (-0.23 #23 w/Babs, +0.42 #3 w/Keefe)
20-21: +0.73 #2
21-22: +0.80 #2
 
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when they started going by expected something something then we'll go by that standard by as of today it's what they measure teams by

You can pretend shootout win points mean something but it only weakens your argument because everyone knows they don't.
 
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I'm interested in your opinion on whether Kyle Dubas is a good GM.

I don't really follow teams other than the Leafs. I don't really give a shit about them, nor do I follow whether their management is good, bad or indifferent.

I don't know anyone, including myself, who would say that the entire success of the Toronto Maple Leafs (whatever that may be -- and to be honest it's not much to date) is owing to Kyle Dubas. A lot of people, including Lou Lamoriello, have had a hand in whatever success the Leafs have achieved.

The question here is what do you think of Kyle Dubas, and for my own part I think he's doing a pretty good job.

What do you think of his performance to date?
the bolded is spot on , unfortunately there's too many posters that feel the need to dump on everything before Dubas arrived to make his light shine brighter and we wouldn't have had any issues if you just came out and said that to begin with

the way i look at the performance of a GM is i take into account the hand they inherited when they were hired , Dubie didn't have the nuts as they say but he was dealt pocket aces

he's made some good moves and some bad but the main issue was he handcuffed himself not only with the 3 rfa's contracts but more harmful the JT singing , now it's basically him filling out the lineup with stop gaps or patches while burning through picks

this year it's been successful but the chances are we won't be able to keep all the pieces we want for next season so it'll be back to burning more picks which will eventually catch up too you
 
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You can pretend shootout win points mean something but it only weakens your argument because everyone knows they don't.
i don't remember 1 poster knocking our shootout points or 105 pt season at that time . i guess for some reason the positive posters feel the need to shit on their own teams previous accomplishments to make the current GM's light shine brighter for some reason , strange
 
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i don't remember 1 poster knocking our shootout points or 105 pt season at that time . i guess for some reason the positive posters feel the need to shit on their own teams previous accomplishments to make the current GM's light shine brighter for some reason , strange

That's not true, of course, but it's up to you if you want to rely on shootout win bonus points as a measure of the quality of a team.
 
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