Kyle Dubas discussion II

[PromisedLand]

Dubas offset Matthews and Marner, smart.

We also have some big names coming off the books, I'd assume their AAV won't be much higher...

Really not concerned about their next contracts.

If true that's great. I don't think their AAVs wouldn't be much higher. To be seen of course

 

[PromisedLand]

Why would you compare GM dubas with the players in this scenario?

In this scenario you would compare "smartnesss" of the respective deals from the GM to the GM, or the players to the players.

So if the one type of deal were smart by the GM , then the other type of deal would be smart for the players.

Because it is relative and not absolute. How good the Leafs are relative to other teams. Not just in team composition but also cap structure, future stability, status of competition etc....

It matters!

 

[hotpaws]

Kopitar, aho, duchene, geaudreau, mackinnon, Barkov, seguin, Benn…. who’s counting tho

How many got an 8yr cap hit for a 5 yr term ?

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

your claim was the ever popular "Dubas bent over", which has been proven conclusively wrong in at least 3 of 4 cases now regardless. yes UFA Tavares is overpaid. make as big a mountain of that 1.5 million as you like. the other 3 are worth the money, period.

dramatic unprecedented misjusdgements for an awful lot of folks on here.

This will only become more and more obvious over the next year or two. With the COVID clamps coming off, you are going to see players like Gaudreau, Forsberg, etc making huge dollars.

Tavares is the only contract I can really hate on (outside of Mrazek and Ritchie), and like you said, even then it's only a 1.5-2m overpay. Tavares is still 9th overall in the NHL in expected goals for...he's still very dangerous.

Imagine this team if you had @ToneDog or @hotpaws types running it - we'd be this year's version of the Islanders.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don’t follow… Matthews was never coming in under eichel or a thing even close regardless who’s negotiating that deal

term matters! Matthews at 12 AAV for 8 years is a lot better than Matthews at 11.6AAV for 5 years. Thats an additional 3 year window to plan around with a cost that is controlled and giving cap more time to increase in those 3 years and have relevant actions/strategies accordingly.

Similarly with Marner.

Imagine Matthews and Marner locked in for 8 years and Tavares' 11 AAV coming off the books. That gives plenty of flexibility to do something constructive and stack the team for the run at the cup.

Good foresight, thinking in terms of relative instead of absolute is important! It Matters!

 

[zeke]

I haven't said anything regarding his next deal. Poster says Leafs prefer 5/6 and 8 year deals rather with their big RFAs rather than 8 and 8. This is simply not true as they clearly wanted 8 years for all 3. Matty was probably the only one wanting 8 but took 5 to reduce the AAV. Poster is now claimimg that Dubas was a genius for giving them the shorter deal now and will sign them for 8 when the deals are up. This is simply not true.

If you do not understand and still think I am being disingenuous, please put me on ignore and do not respond because I am done with this.

There are good and bad things about both.

 

[Gabriel426]

Honestly, I have been saying for the past few years. You can continue to trash on Dubas for whatever reasons, but if the Leafs under him ever win the Cup, you can't take credits away from him, bc he built this team. Same thing with MM and AM, you cant go on about how important they are to Leafs success and then say it is a TEAM game when they struggled in playoffs. You just can't have it both ways.
Right now, Dubas like many GMs had done great, good, so so, bad and really bad deals(not going to name each ones). Playoffs success will always be the determining factor of how good the GM is, Chia is the outliner.

 

[ToneDog]

There are good and bad things about both.

I agree, I just do not agree that it was Dubas' strategy to sign Matty and Mitch for 5 and 6 years so he can get them in their primes after they sign their next contract for 8 years. All things being equally, pretty sure Dubas and the majority of Leaf fans preferred 8 and 8 for both Matty and Mitch.

 

[PromisedLand]

Honestly, I have been saying for the past few years. You can continue to trash on Dubas for whatever reasons, but if the Leafs under him ever win the Cup, you can't take credits away from him, bc he built this team. Same thing with MM and AM, you cant go on about how important they are to Leafs success and then say it is a TEAM game when they struggled in playoffs. You just can't have it both ways.
Right now, Dubas like many GMs had done great, good, so so, bad and really bad deals(not going to name each ones). Playoffs success will always be the determining factor of how good the GM is, Chia is the outliner.

Nobody in their right mind is going to take credit away from Dubas if Leafs win a cup under his tenure. Heck even if they make ECF that is success in my books.

Dubas got all the credit for the marlies cup run and deservedly so. No reason dubas shouldnt be getting credit for the Leafs cup win when/if that happens.

 

[Menzinger]

Marner was obviously a Hunter pick .

If you want to give credit to Dubas then it should be for going to Shanny and having him force Hunter to draft Korshov which followed Dubies philosophy of drafting based on inefficiencies which he believes are over agers and Smurfs .

and if you can find and draft an over age Smurf like Big Mac Holliwell then you’ve hit the Jackpot !!!

Citation needed.
So in order to excuse Hunters botched picks he apparently was following Dubas' orders (while Lou was GM.....)?

 

[ToneDog]

Nobody in their right mind is going to take credit away from Dubas if Leafs win a cup under his tenure. Heck even if they make ECF that is success in my books.

Dubas got all the credit for the marlies cup run and deservedly so. No reason dubas shouldnt be getting credit for the Leafs cup win when/if that happens.

If Leafs win a Cup under Dubas, many posters (including me) are going to be busy eating crow. Credit where credit is due.

As things stand he has added the grit many think we were missing. His undoing might be goaltending though.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How many got an 8yr cap hit for a 5 yr term ?

None of the Leaf players got 8 year cap percentages. They got cap percentages that were appropriate for their term.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews at 12 AAV for 8 years is a lot better than Matthews at 11.6AAV for 5 years.

Matthews was never signing 12m x 8 in a million years though. 3 years of term costs more than 400k.

 

[ToneDog]

This will only become more and more obvious over the next year or two. With the COVID clamps coming off, you are going to see players like Gaudreau, Forsberg, etc making huge dollars.

Tavares is the only contract I can really hate on (outside of Mrazek and Ritchie), and like you said, even then it's only a 1.5-2m overpay. Tavares is still 9th overall in the NHL in expected goals for...he's still very dangerous.

Imagine this team if you had @ToneDog or @hotpaws types running it - we'd be this year's version of the Islanders.

Bullshit, we'd be just as good if not better. LOL.

 

[hotpaws]

None of the Leaf players got 8 year cap percentages. They got cap percentages that were appropriate for their term.

Sure they did , lol .

 

[Menzinger]

The problem is that both Nylander and Matthews are going to be UFAs at the same time. There isn't enough cap room for the Leafs to make that happen given that Marner follows as a UFA the following year.

The "increments" will be higher than their 5 or 6 year deals.

Conventional wisdom is either you get them for 8 years or you bridge them for 2/3 years and then re-sign for 8 yars.

Thus 5+8 years signging IMO is not ideal for your top 5 picks especially when they had been producing.

Yea I know Crosby, Malkin, Patty Kane, etc... went 5+8. The difference though is they had post season success to go with it!

The league cap is speculated to actually get a nice bump just as the Leafs guys are due for new deals. Which is great news for the front office

Salary cap could go up in 2024-25, just in time for Maple Leafs and Canucks

The expected salary cap increase for the 2024-25 season could prove to be good timing for the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Vancouver Canucks.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Nylanderthal]

How many got an 8yr cap hit for a 5 yr term ?

Neither did Matthews though. If you look at cap% relative to their deals seasons it’s not out of line with the big boys

 

[hotpaws]

Bullshit, we'd be just as good if not better. Lol

It would be hard not to have a quality team when you inherit

Mathews
Marner
Nylander
Kadri
Rielly
Brown

Who were all in the early 20s .

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

It would be hard not to have a quality team when you inherit

Mathews
Marner
Nylander
Kadri
Rielly
Brown

Who were all in the early 20s .

I would say they are pretty high quality right now - 3rd in pts%. 6th in overall points across the Dubas years, despite inheriting the worst farm in hockey and a pretty awful blueline.

Well done Dubes!

 

[hotpaws]

Neither did Matthews though. If you look at cap% relative to their deals seasons it’s not out of line with the big boys

It posts like these that have me questioning if you’re actually a Leaf fan .

Most of us cheer for the crest on the front of the jersey , then there’s others than seem to believe what’s important is defending an employee of the teams every move .

 

[TMLegend]

None of the Leaf players got 8 year cap percentages. They got cap percentages that were appropriate for their term.

Matthews certainly did. Marner did as well.

Matthews already had a great comparable in Steven Stamkos. Primarily goal scoring centers(at the time), both #1 overall picks, both signed 5 year deals post-ELC, Stamkos got 11.66% of the cap vs Matthews 14.63%, or equivalent to about 9.25x5 when Matthews signed his deal. And Stamkos had already had a Richard to his name by that point.

 

[Gabriel426]

Nobody in their right mind is going to take credit away from Dubas if Leafs win a cup under his tenure. Heck even if they make ECF that is success in my books.

Dubas got all the credit for the marlies cup run and deservedly so. No reason dubas shouldnt be getting credit for the Leafs cup win when/if that happens.

I agree with you but I think a lot here won't. Heck, some even suggested that long ago, if Leafs win a Cup it won't be the same as others bc they tanked it for AM, lol.

 

[hotpaws]

I would say they are pretty high quality right now - 3rd in pts%. 6th in overall points across the Dubas years, despite inheriting the worst farm in hockey and a pretty awful blueline.

Well done Dubes!

Where’d we be without M and M , Riley and Willie who looks great when not having to play at half speed due to his center that cant skate ?

Yup our phenomenal blue line that bleeds goals , or wait it’s not the D it’s the goalies , but that’s not Dubies fault they suck ass because um because goalies are voodoo yea thats it , there voodoo . Lol .

 

[Puckstuff]

Liljegren was not a Dubas acquisition, was drafted while Dubas was AGM.

thanks I updated

 

[ToneDog]

I agree with you but I think a lot here won't. Heck, some even suggested that long ago, if Leafs win a Cup it won't be the same as others bc they tanked it for AM, lol.

Those are not Leaf fans.