Kyle Dubas discussion II

[Ciao]

No offence, but we're discussing the third-place team in the National Hockey League, right?

Reading this reminds me of those endless days when the Leafs were fighting tooth-and-nail for the eighth and final playoff spot, often without success. They had refined the art of finishing low enough to miss the playoffs and high enough to miss a top-ten draft pick. Threading the needle for ninth place was a fine art.

Makes you wonder how they ever climbed the ladder.

 

[The Podium]

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

Another day, another narrative.
These guys are relentless.

How about Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Tavares?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

No offence, but we're discussing the third-place team in the National Hockey League, right?

Reading this reminds me of those endless days when the Leafs were fighting tooth-and-nail for the eighth and final playoff spot, often without success. They had refined the art of finishing low enough to miss the playoffs and high enough to miss a top-ten draft pick. Threading the needle for ninth place was a fine art.

Makes you wonder how they ever climbed the ladder.

Look it’s real simple. Dubas gets no credit for the good but takes all the blame for the bad. Not hard to follow.

 

[Nylanderthal]

How about Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Tavares?

Kopitar, aho, duchene, geaudreau, mackinnon, Barkov, seguin, Benn…. who’s counting tho

 

[Suntouchable13]

Look it’s real simple. Dubas gets no credit for the good but takes all the blame for the bad. Not hard to follow.

At the end of the day, he will be judged how this team does in the playoffs. Simple as that. You don't get statues built or have parades for finishing 3rd in the NHL during the regular season.

 

[zeke]

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

Why would you compare GM dubas with the players in this scenario?

In this scenario you would compare "smartnesss" of the respective deals from the GM to the GM, or the players to the players.

So if the one type of deal were smart by the GM , then the other type of deal would be smart for the players.

 

[ToneDog]

Which would be?

You said:

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

Aren't you claiming the Leafs preferred shorter deals for the big three and then an 8 year extension rather than 2, 8 year deals??

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

At the end of the day, he will be judged how this team does in the playoffs. Simple as that. You don't get statues built or have parades for finishing 3rd in the NHL during the regular season.

This is true for the entire organization. But let’s not pretend that if we were having a bad regular season his same detractors now wouldn’t be carving him up.

 

[zeke]

You said:

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

Aren't you claiming the Leafs preferred shorter deals for the big three and then an 8 year extension rather than 2, 8 year deals??

McDavid's next contract will take him to age 38, Matthews' will end at age 34.

Do with that information what you will.

 

[Morbo]

That one took lots of thought. LOL.


The claim is "Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.".

Right but poster says Leafs prefer the shorter deal over 2, 8 year deals which is a stretch. Pretty sure Marner was offered 8 years and wanted 5, Leafs countered with 7 and settled for 6. The reason players now do not want 8 years is so they can cash in on their next deal sooner not because teams prefer 5 and 8 year deals as suggested by the poster.

your claim was the ever popular "Dubas bent over", which has been proven conclusively wrong in at least 3 of 4 cases now regardless. yes UFA Tavares is overpaid. make as big a mountain of that 1.5 million as you like. the other 3 are worth the money, period.

dramatic unprecedented misjusdgements for an awful lot of folks on here.

 

[ToneDog]

How about Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Tavares?

What about them ? Tavares took 5 years but gave the Isles a discount. Our guys gave no discount and took shorter deals so they can cash in on their next deals sooner. This is they new thinking. No comment on the others as I am only familiar with the cap hits, not years or negotiations.

 

[Suntouchable13]

This is true for the entire organization. But let’s not pretend that if we were having a bad regular season his same detractors now wouldn’t be carving him up.

The team has done great, better than I thought honestly. Definitely deserves credit for that.

 

[ToneDog]

McDavid's next contract will take him to age 38, Matthews' will end at age 34.

Do with that information what you will.

Right so do the Leafs prefer 5 and 8 year deals or 8 and 8 year deals with the big 3 ?? My point is that Leafs did not give shorter contracts because they wanted 16,34 and 88 to become UFAs sooner. They wanted 8 year deals. The 3 wanted shorter and not because it was in the best interest of the team.

 

[Nylanderthal]

You said:

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

Aren't you claiming the Leafs preferred shorter deals for the big three and then an 8 year extension rather than 2, 8 year deals??

Yes, and Matthews wanted 8 and Dubas said let’s do 5-6 to keep aav down. What are we arguing here? This is stupid. You’re literally not making a shred of sense, which is pretty typical actually

 

[notbias]

The problem is that both Nylander and Matthews are going to be UFAs at the same time. There isn't enough cap room for the Leafs to make that happen given that Marner follows as a UFA the following year.

The "increments" will be higher than their 5 or 6 year deals.

Conventional wisdom is either you get them for 8 years or you bridge them for 2/3 years and then re-sign for 8 yars.

Thus 5+8 years signging IMO is not ideal for your top 5 picks especially when they had been producing.

Yea I know Crosby, Malkin, Patty Kane, etc... went 5+8. The difference though is they had post season success to go with it!

Dubas offset Matthews and Marner, smart.

We also have some big names coming off the books, I'd assume their AAV won't be much higher...

Really not concerned about their next contracts.

 

[zeke]

Right so do the Leafs prefer 5 and 8 year deals or 8 and 8 year deals with the big 3 ?? Leafs did not shorter contracts because they wanted their RFAs to

Your guys' entire argument against matthews "short" deal is what it means to his next deal after that.

Kinda disingenuous of you to now claim that we're not allowed to consider that a positive of this deal could be its impact on his next deal.

 

[The Podium]

What about them ? Tavares took 5 years but gave the Isles a discount. Our guys gave no discount and took shorter deals so they can cash in on their next deals sooner. This is they new thinking. No comment on the others as I am only familiar with the cap hits, not years or negotiations.

No comment on those others because they are exactly in line with Matthews and Marner

 

[ToneDog]

Yes, and Matthews wanted 8 and Dubas said let’s do 5-6 to keep aav down. What are we arguing here? This is stupid. You’re literally not making a shred of sense, which is pretty typical actually

You are sucking and blowing at the same time. If not for the AAV Dubas would have signed Matty for 8 which is not what you hypothesis was. You claimed Leafs wanted shorter deals so they could get their prime years. If you still don't get it, forget it.

 

[Machinae]

Glad we're talking about overpaying stars and not talking about Lou's horrendous Zaitsev or Marleau deals.

 

[ToneDog]

No comment on those others because they are exactly in line with Matthews and Marner

Read the OP which says Leafs preferred shorter term with their RFAs and I called bullshit. If not for the AAV, you cannot tell me Leafs did not want to sign Matty for 8 years. Also you can't tell me they did not want Marner for 8 years.

 

[ToneDog]

Glad we're talking about overpaying stars and not talking about Lou's horrendous Zaitsev or Marleau deals.

We are talking about term not overpayments if you are referring to this part of the discussions.

 

[ToneDog]

Your guys' entire argument against matthews "short" deal is what it means to his next deal after that.

Kinda disingenuous of you to now claim that we're not allowed to consider that a positive of this deal could be its impact on his next deal.

One again poster said"

The claim is "Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.".

This way = shorter term now.

Nothing disengenious. You compared the next McDavid deal taking him to 38 and Matty's to 34 and which I preferred. I am saying Leafs preferred 8 year deals for 16 and 34 while poster is trying to paint the shorter term as genius move by Dubas. That is complete bullshit.

 

[zeke]

Nothing disengenious. You compared the next McDavid deal taking him to 38. I am saying Leafs preferred 8 year deals for 16 and 34 while poster is trying to paint the shorter term as genius move by Dubas. That is complete bullshit.

Why is it bullshit?

Your entire argument against matthews deal is what it means for his next deal. Why are we not allowed to point out that there are good things about how it effects his next deal too?

 

[ToneDog]

Why is it bullshit?

Your entire argument against matthews deal is what it means for his next deal. Why are we not allowed to point out that there are good things about how it effects his next deal too?

I haven't said anything regarding his next deal. Poster says Leafs prefer 5/6 and 8 year deals rather with their big RFAs rather than 8 and 8. This is simply not true as they clearly wanted 8 years for all 3. Matty was probably the only one wanting 8 but took 5 to reduce the AAV. Poster is now claimimg that Dubas was a genius for giving them the shorter deal now and will sign them for 8 when the deals are up. This is simply not true.

If you do not understand and still think I am being disingenuous, please put me on ignore and do not respond because I am done with this.

 

[Gabriel426]

McDavid's next contract will take him to age 38, Matthews' will end at age 34.

Do with that information what you will.

You are assuming McD will sign 8 yrs deal. But his next contract will most likely be the Kariya and Teemu deal with Avs and join the Leafs for a Cup run with Drai and then sign his next deal.