Kyle Dubas discussion II

[DueDiligence]

people losing their minds over goaltending when kallgren is a damn good backup that dubas got when in a pinch

Kallgren is not a "damn good backup" ; he is adequate at best.

 

[PromisedLand]

Tavares deal is definitely the worst but also was the one Dubas actually got a deal on. I hate UFA contracts man. Such a stupid concept that you get paid for past performance instead of projected future ability. JT is probably an 8.5 million dollar player, which is great, but mannnn I’d love another 2.5M for a real goalie or winger upgrade.

I never wanted Tavares at that cap hit. Offense was never an issue for us. When babcock was coaching it was defense that sucked; but we doubled down on offense with Tavares signing; and the offense hasn't shown up in post season after JT

1) Bruins
2) CBJ
3) Habs (caveat: JT was injured in the 1st game)

 

[PromisedLand]

If Dubas was in full control in the 2015 Draft I’m confident he still takes Marner. Marner is the type of player Dubas has been drafting . I’m sure Hunter and him were on the same page with that pick.

there are rumours that Dubas wanted Hanifin but Hunter won the argument and drafted Marner since Hunter had first hand info about London Knights. And since Leafs picked Marner (forward) with the 1st rounder; Dubas insisted on drafting a D-men with the 2nd rounder (Dermott) b/c dermott had ridiculous ppg for a d-man with the otters without McDavid in 2015-16 season

P.S. I have no idea if this is true. These were the rumours back then

 

[Nylanderthal]

When all your left is to spin your previous statement you know you’ve lost your argument .

You said he was in charge and now your backtracking when you were corrected .

I never said he was in charge, and I never backtrack because I don’t make outlandish and stupid comments.

 

[IPS]

there are rumours that Dubas wanted Hanifin but Hunter won the argument and drafted Marner since Hunter had first hand info about London Knights. And since Leafs picked Marner (forward) with the 1st rounder; Dubas insisted on drafting a D-men with the 2nd rounder (Dermott) b/c dermott had ridiculous ppg for a d-man with the otters without McDavid in 2015-16 season

P.S. I have no idea if this is true. These were the rumours back then

I believe Rantanen and Werenski were Dubas' targets. Babcock was the one who wanted Hanifin.

 

[Nylanderthal]

there are rumours that Dubas wanted Hanifin but Hunter won the argument and drafted Marner since Hunter had first hand info about London Knights. And since Leafs picked Marner (forward) with the 1st rounder; Dubas insisted on drafting a D-men with the 2nd rounder (Dermott) b/c dermott had ridiculous ppg for a d-man with the otters without McDavid in 2015-16 season

P.S. I have no idea if this is true. These were the rumours back then

Pretty sure it was babcock who wanted Hanifin, not Dubas. Marner is exactly the kind of player Dubas covets And would prioritize drafting especially with all the upside he had. We’ll never know for sure and it’s all water under the bridge at this point though.
The only thing we do know is that there were discussions around us flipping 4 to Columbus for their 7th oa and their three seconds, and the thought there was werenski/rantanen would be the targets and then probably dermott and Bracco who they selected and I think Aho was the other guy talked about on here as being a piece of interest.
That trade also makes the trade back with philly a moot point as well so you’re looking at walking away with potentially something like Werenski/rantanen konecny dermott Bracco Aho vs Marner dermott Bracco.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Mirtle pimping Dubas isn’t anything new and a blogger speculating means as much as our opinion .

My point however about Dubie drafting based on his beloved inefficiencies stands and is reflected in his actual picks .

Also I find it funny how he wanted every gem before he was GM yet I don’t see any home runs in since he’s been HM . Maybe Knieves is the pick , we’ll have to wait and see .

and surely he would taken the steal in the 5th rd instead of taking Big Mac Holliwell a few picks earlier in the 4th rd if his publicist Mirtle opinion the the Dube is a draft genius is to be believed .

Did Kyle take your lunch money, or your wife?

 

[Nylanderthal]

I believe Rantanen and Werenski were Dubas' targets. Babcock was the one who wanted Hanifin.

This is the correct answer

 

[Nylanderthal]

Tavares deal is definitely the worst but also was the one Dubas actually got a deal on. I hate UFA contracts man. Such a stupid concept that you get paid for past performance instead of projected future ability. JT is probably an 8.5 million dollar player, which is great, but mannnn I’d love another 2.5M for a real goalie or winger upgrade.

Every transaction is an exchange of assets, to bring in a top line 1c asset in FA you sacrifice cap room vs assets like draft capital or prospects. Do you think the rangers are upset with bread man being the second highest paid player right now?

 

[ACC1224]

I believe Rantanen and Werenski were Dubas' targets. Babcock was the one who wanted Hanifin.

There were lots of different reports I doubt we'll ever know the full truth.
I do know that Hunter had Marner ranked 2nd after McDavid.

Rantanen was Hunters choice if they were going to trade down..

 

[hotpaws]

I believe Rantanen and Werenski were Dubas' targets. Babcock was the one who wanted Hanifin.

The rumour was we were going to trade down if Marner was gone and Hunter had those 2 and one other I believe as his targets .

 

[notbias]

I do acknowledge that covid was an unforeseen event but IMO such events should be in considerations when negotiating contracts. Btw by that I mean if the League revenue goes down what is the impact on CAP. League revenue can go down for many reasons - covid is just one reason.

Second, I expect our GM to be be negotiating for future contributions too but at the same time I expect our GM to be mindful of relative NHL competition (in Division/Conference/League). What I mean by this? -> to be mindful of how other teams are shaping up given the contracts being paid for their core and what may be left over for them to upgrade and be a direct competition to the Leafs.

Eichel, McDavid, Draisaitl, Aho, Rantanen etc... are some of the contracts that were signed within close proximity given Matthews and Marner contracts. If Matthews and Marner has signed for 8 years for the same AAV; I think the mood around here would have been different because you extend the window of contention by holding on to these assets at a fixed AAV longer and can plan around much better.

If I had to guess; I would guess that Dubas thought by giving such raises to Matthews and Marner there would be a significant price increase across the league and there might be some parity going forward. Unfortunately that wasn't the case.

I am going to assume (could be wrong) that part of the Leafs' team of people that deal with the cap are forecasting the rise of the cap too, they probably had a very good indication that the cap would be rising significantly based on all their forecasts (I am assuming agents do this too), I am sure global pandemic was on no one's radar, not sure how you can predict for that. If I am not mistaken (could be wrong here too), I remember hearing that cap could be going up 5 million due to the TV deal.

The contract lengths are not as crazy as people make them out to be and allow us to re-sign them for their entire prime instead of getting into the last 30s with their second 8-year deal.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I am going to assume (could be wrong) that part of the Leafs' team of people that deal with the cap are forecasting the rise of the cap too, they probably had a very good indication that the cap would be rising significantly based on all their forecasts (I am assuming agents do this too), I am sure global pandemic was on no one's radar, not sure how you can predict for that. If I am not mistaken (could be wrong here too), I remember hearing that cap could be going up 5 million due to the TV deal.

The contract lengths are not as crazy as people make them out to be and allow us to re-sign them for their entire prime instead of getting into the last 30s with their second 8-year deal.

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

 

[ToneDog]

Your last part is crucially important and a point glossed over by those who like to bitch and moan about the term lengths. Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

 

[ACC1224]

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

Another day, another narrative.
These guys are relentless.

 

[PromisedLand]

I am going to assume (could be wrong) that part of the Leafs' team of people that deal with the cap are forecasting the rise of the cap too, they probably had a very good indication that the cap would be rising significantly based on all their forecasts (I am assuming agents do this too), I am sure global pandemic was on no one's radar, not sure how you can predict for that. If I am not mistaken (could be wrong here too), I remember hearing that cap could be going up 5 million due to the TV deal.

The contract lengths are not as crazy as people make them out to be and allow us to re-sign them for their entire prime instead of getting into the last 30s with their second 8-year deal.

The problem is that both Nylander and Matthews are going to be UFAs at the same time. There isn't enough cap room for the Leafs to make that happen given that Marner follows as a UFA the following year.

The "increments" will be higher than their 5 or 6 year deals.

Conventional wisdom is either you get them for 8 years or you bridge them for 2/3 years and then re-sign for 8 yars.

Thus 5+8 years signging IMO is not ideal for your top 5 picks especially when they had been producing.

Yea I know Crosby, Malkin, Patty Kane, etc... went 5+8. The difference though is they had post season success to go with it!

 

[Morbo]

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

No he won't. Matthews was fine with 8 years but the team chose the lower cap hit on the 5 year deal because of other guys they had to sign.

 

[ToneDog]

Another day, another narrative.
These guys are relentless.

That one took lots of thought. LOL.

No he won't. Matthews was fine with 8 years but the team chose the lower cap hit on the 5 year deal because of other guys they had to sign.

The claim is "Two 8 year deals pushes Matthews Marner and Willy all into their late thirties. This way the big ufa contract encompasses their whole prime.".

Right but poster says Leafs prefer the shorter deal over 2, 8 year deals which is a stretch. Pretty sure Marner was offered 8 years and wanted 5, Leafs countered with 7 and settled for 6. The reason players now do not want 8 years is so they can cash in on their next deal sooner not because teams prefer 5 and 8 year deals as suggested by the poster.

 

[PromisedLand]

No he won't. Matthews was fine with 8 years but the team chose the lower cap hit on the 5 year deal because of other guys they had to sign.

Rumour was that Matthews' 8 year deal was eclipsing even McDavid's cap hit. This is where I think Dubas failed in negotiations.


If cap wasn't an issue i dont really care what we pay the players.

When you have a line of Pasta/Bergeron/Marchand being really productive and not taking tremendous capspace;

or with tampa back then (point/kuch/stamkos/vasy) being competent not costing as much

it becomes challenging to compete with them int he first couple rounds when you have bloated contracts.

Sure.... Tampa now is paying Kuch and Vasy ridiculously but guess what they got 2 cups and a few runs out of them before they got paid.

And that right there is the issue for me. If Leafs go on a deep run this post season and heck win the cup. All these arguments are gonna be the thing of the past. Until then.....

 

[Nylanderthal]

So Dubas was the smart one and McDavid and Eichel and the other RFAs that signed 8 year deals are the dumb ones ?? Sorry, not buying it. Dubas was the one who wanted 8 years and bent to the wishes of 16 and 34. Pretty sure Kyle will tell you this himself if you ask him.

Actually no, Matthews wanted 8 years and Kyle pushed for 5 to keep the aav down.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Rumour was that Matthews' 8 year deal was eclipsing even McDavid's cap hit. This is where I think Dubas failed in negotiations.


If cap wasn't an issue i dont really care what we pay the players.

When you have a line of Pasta/Bergeron/Marchand being really productive and not taking tremendous capspace;

or with tampa back then (point/kuch/stamkos/vasy) being competent not costing as much

it becomes challenging to compete with them int he first couple rounds when you have bloated contracts.

Sure.... Tampa now is paying Kuch and Vasy ridiculously but guess what they got 2 cups and a few runs out of them before they got paid.

And that right there is the issue for me. If Leafs go on a deep run this post season and heck win the cup. All these arguments are gonna be the thing of the past. Until then.....

It’s unfortunate that our guys broke out before needing extensions rather than after in the case of pasta.
The best player is rarely ever the highest paid, new deals are always out to eclipse the previous deals. Of course a theoretical Matthews 8 year deal would be more raw aav than mcdavids bargain

 

[PromisedLand]

The best player is rarely ever the highest paid, new deals are always out to eclipse the previous deals. Of course a theoretical Matthews 8 year deal would be more raw aav than mcdavids bargain

And that is why Dubas was a terrible negotiator. Dubas works for Maple Leafs not Matthews' agent.

 

[Nylanderthal]

And that is why Dubas was a terrible negotiator. Dubas works for Maple Leafs not Matthews' agent.

I don’t follow… Matthews was never coming in under eichel or a thing even close regardless who’s negotiating that deal

 

[ToneDog]

Actually no, Matthews wanted 8 years and Kyle pushed for 5 to keep the aav down.

Right so your hypothesis is wrong.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Right so your hypothesis is wrong.

Which would be?