Kyle Dubas discussion II

[All Mod Cons]

Fans get no credit for the elite players but get blamed for their playoffs failures

 

[Ciao]

The reason the team has improved so much is that the core players, namely Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Reilly have all entered their peak years. Going from a ~65 point forward to a ~105 point forward will elevate the team, big time.

These guys were here before Dubas became GM, and were going to progress regardless of who was in charge. He gets no credit for them, or the 105 point team he inherited as a baseline. The real question is, how well did he do with the core’s contracts, and how well did he do filling out the rest of the team? Not very well, in my view.

A lot of salt in there.

I do hope you enjoy the Leafs' games. It's been a while since we've seen a Leafs' team play this well.

If they have some playoff success, there will be plenty of credit to go around.

I just don't see the need to minimize the successes of anyone in the Leafs' organization, past or present.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Its a results oriented business not a transactional review, so like you I agree it will come done to how this team performs in the playoffs that will be the ultimate measure of GM performance.

Dubas walked into the job inheriting a 100+ point playoff team, and a hard faught 7 game playoff round #1 loss to Boston, while being handed the keys to perhaps the Leafs team's all-time franchise best player Auston Matthews and a perennial 50 goal scorer from his predecessor to build upon.

You must be at least partially happy that he just produced the best result in franchise history, like he did at his other two levels? Now on to the playoffs!

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Erm, what?

Marner was on the team already before Dubas was named GM. He was a 19-goal, 61-point forward as a rookie, and he’s now at 94 points and counting this year so under normal circumstances it would be natural to expect the team to have improved over that time.

Marner came while Dubas was at the helm.

Still waiting on your comparison of the D corps and other forwards. As a start:

Hainsey, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Polak, Borgman, Carrick, Dermott , Holl

vs

Brodie, Giordano, Muzzin, Liljegren (Lou), Sandin, Lyubushkin, Holl

Marleau, Hyman, Brown, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Komarov, Moore, Martin, Kapanen, Plekanec, Leivo

vs

Tavares, Kerfoot, Bunting, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kampf, Kase, Spezza, Blackwell

*Note a couple names cross regimes but you wanted to talk filling out rosters, which groups do you prefer?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Marner was obviously a Hunter pick .

If you want to give credit to Dubas then it should be for going to Shanny and having him force Hunter to draft Korshov which followed Dubies philosophy of drafting based on inefficiencies which he believes are over agers and Smurfs .

and if you can find and draft an over age Smurf like Big Mac Holliwell then you’ve hit the Jackpot !!!

Dubas was at the helm in the Marner draft. You can't inherit something while you are at the helm.

 

[The Podium]

Believe that’s correct. He and Hunter were both interim at the time.

Ya, to be fair I think Hunter had bigger pull in that draft. However, it seems like there was an internal debate during that draft. Babs wanted Hanifin, Hunter Marner, dont know where Dubas was on that spectrum.

However, IIRC, Dubas, or someone other than Hunter in the Leafs organization, was a big fan of Sebastian Aho with our 2nd.

 

[hotpaws]

this is satire right

Is it ?

We now know Dubie was the apple of Shanny’s eye and that he use to go on and on about drafting based on inefficiencies which he believes are smurfs and overagers.

So why would it be so hard to believe he went to Shanny to get him to tell Hunter to draft these types of players ?

Now I’m not necessarily saying he told Shanny who to draft , he may have , but more like what type of player to draft .

 

[hotpaws]

Dubas was at the helm in the Marner draft. You can't inherit something while you are at the helm.

Dubie was at the helm with Hunter and Shanny . He wasn’t alone but if it makes you feel better then believe what you like .

I’m just hoping after Dubie gets the boot they get progressive and hire Jennifer “Jenny the neck” Bottrril as GM and Gammy Goyette as coach .

 

[Leaf Fans]

Fans get no credit for the elite players but get blamed for their playoffs failures

Fans don't.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Is it ?

We now know Dubie was the apple of Shanny’s eye and that he use to go on and on about drafting based on inefficiencies which he believes are smurfs and overagers.

So why would it be so hard to believe he went to Shanny to get him to tell Hunter to draft these types of players ?

Now I’m not necessarily saying he told Shanny who to draft , he may have , but more like what type of player to draft .

I doubt it is is satire. It may be a poor attempt at satire. Unless, the irony is that it is self reflection.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Dubie was at the helm with Hunter and Shanny . He wasn’t alone but if it makes you feel better then believe what you like .

I’m just hoping after Dubie gets the boot they get progressive and hire Jennifer “Jenny the neck” Bottrril as GM and Gammy Goyette as coach .

No one said he was alone, though glad you could invent an argument and debate yourself. Avant garde.

 

[hockeynorth]

Is it ?

We now know Dubie was the apple of Shanny’s eye and that he use to go on and on about drafting based on inefficiencies which he believes are smurfs and overagers.

So why would it be so hard to believe he went to Shanny to get him to tell Hunter to draft these types of players ?

Now I’m not necessarily saying he told Shanny who to draft , he may have , but more like what type of player to draft .

Six thoughts to keep in mind ahead of the Leafs-Blue Jackets play-in series

Jack Han worked for the Leafs for three years, so he has a unique perspective to offer when it comes to keys to the play-in series.

theathletic.com

One prospect name reportedly sums up the Leafs’ ‘dramatically different’ draft strategy - Article - BARDOWN

There are a lot of rumours swirling around as the Toronto Maple Leafs’ front office transitions to the Kyle Dubas era, but one has stuck out as a real change in direction.

www.bardown.com

Mirtle: Leafs' draft strategy one of first big changes coming under Kyle Dubas

Whatever the Leafs' draft list looked like a couple weeks ago, make no mistake, it is now dramatically different.

theathletic.com

Mirtle: A closer look at the decisions the Maple Leafs made at the 2017 NHL draft

CHICAGO – By the time Fedor Gordeev was selected by the Maple Leafs, 141 picks into a 217 pick draft, the stands at the United Center had largely emptied out. Most of the kids going in even the third and fourth rounds weren’t there when their names were called. But Gordeev — a massive...

theathletic.com

Toronto Maple Leafs Considered Taking Aho Over Dermott, So Let’s Compare

According to Mike Babcock - who is probably a good source to trust - the Toronto Maple Leafs pondered selecting Sebastian Aho in the second round of the 20...

editorinleaf.com

I hope so because Korshkov doesn't at all align with the idea that Dubas wanted DeBrincat. And on the flip side, if he told Shanahan to take Korshkov, then Dubas would've also had say in Marner and Liljegren which no one has ever given him, it doesn't just work with the mishits or the good hits depending whether you like Dubas or not. Saying he got one pick and that one pick was brutal but doesn't align with his usual MO is like shifting the narrative. I'm all for believing he picked Korshkov, it seems at least somewhat plausible, but then by that measure he would've also had a much bigger hand in 2015 and 2017 then anyone has said. For example, why did we go Dermott over Aho when it's been reported Aho is considered? Kind of just a weird, shifting narrative. Narratives are cool, but they shouldn't shift.

FYI for context, at the time I was avidly following the draft, especially CHL prospects and was PISSED we picked Korshkov over all of DeBrincat, Kyrou, Girard, Raddysh and Hart. I figured that was on both Dubas and Hunter.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner came while Dubas was at the helm.

Still waiting on your comparison of the D corps and other forwards. As a start:

Hainsey, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Polak, Borgman, Carrick, Dermott , Holl

vs

Brodie, Giordano, Muzzin, Liljegren (Lou), Sandin, Lyubushkin, Holl

Marleau, Hyman, Brown, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Komarov, Moore, Martin, Kapanen, Plekanec, Leivo

vs

Tavares, Kerfoot, Bunting, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kampf, Kase, Spezza, Blackwell

*Note a couple names cross regimes but you wanted to talk filling out rosters, which groups do you prefer?

Now do goaltending.

 

[zeke]

At some point people will have to come to grips with the fact that Dubas managed to build a far better team than he inherited despite paying his 3 young stars $30m instead of the $3m they cost under the previous regime.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Fleury among the weirdest, in that it's like he has a personality disorder.....he swings so hard and fast from great to garbage. If you get the great....awesome!

Not to mention the team killing antics from his handlers when he’s not treated as they see fit. He’d be the hardest of passes for me and frankly rolling the dice on what we have in the system and insulating them with stronger D in Gio looks like the smarter move.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Marner came while Dubas was at the helm.

Why do you keep repeating statements that are objectively false?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Now do goaltending.

Andersen

Campbell

So, any input to the subject?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Why do you keep repeating statements that are objectively false?

Was there anyone GM above him?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

At some point people will have to come to grips with the fact that Dubas managed to build a far better team than he inherited despite paying his 3 young stars $30m instead of the $3m they cost under the previous regime.

I wonder sometimes, you hear about all this available space.....why wouldn't previous management use some of it to build a d-corps?

 

[Nylanderthal]

Its a results oriented business not a transactional review, so like you I agree it will come done to how this team performs in the playoffs that will be the ultimate measure of GM performance.

Dubas walked into the job inheriting a 100+ point playoff team, and a hard faught 7 game playoff round #1 loss to Boston, while being handed the keys to perhaps the Leafs team's all-time franchise best player Auston Matthews and a perennial 50 goal scorer from his predecessor to build upon.

What perennial 50 goal scorer did Kyle inherit? How about the blue line he inherited? Or the bevy of middle 6 depth that were left unsigned into ufa by his predecessor? Let’s talk about the prospect pool then vs now as well. Or the carpet bomb on the salary cap his predecessor left in the room in the form of Marleau.
He was interim co-gm when they drafted Marner and was high in the organization as agm for the drafting of Willy, Austonc, and Liljegren.
He’s navigated and come through these Covid years looking like he’s assembled the deepest organization we’ve ever had.

 

[zeke]

Record without Shootout lottery win bonus points.

16-17: 94pts
17-18: 98pts
---enter dubes---
18-19: 100pts
19-20: 94pts pace (75pts pace w/Babs, 103pts pace w/Keefe)
20-21: 111pts pace
21-22: 114pts pace

 

[zeke]

I wonder sometimes, you hear about all this available space.....why wouldn't previous management use some of it to build a d-corps?

you don't think adding Zaitsev/Hainsey/Polak was enough???

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Was there anyone GM above him?

Marner’s rookie season was in 2016-17. Lou was the GM at that time.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Nah, they're not people, just inevitably improving assets. How they're treated has no bearing on their performance. There was never any debate about keeping them.

The only other outcome from a different negotiating approach was lower value contracts with longer term, not strained relationships and bridge deals, certainly not trades when lines in the sand were drawn.

Certainly no chance that a disciplinarian type would have sided with the coach over primadonna youngsters and traded one to send a message.

It's inconceivable that anyone could have given up on them after playoff disappointments and moved on, because it certainly wasn't discussed that doubling down and betting on them was a GM sticking his neck out and betting his job.

No. No credit at all.

I really wish I still had my like button, anyone know how long those are suspended for?

 

[zeke]

I really wish I still had my like button, anyone know how long those are suspended for?

i wonder if they're doing some work on the site maybe, cuz mine just disappeared without warning.