Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[axlrose87]

I wonder what Kyle’s reaction is to tonight’s no show vs Ottawa? He made a point to talk about the cultural problem within the room about not having assertive personalities in the offseason. He add a lot of ingredients but the team is behaving exactly the way it did in the past. Play tentative and disinterested, get blown out.

I believe Dubas has to quit his crush on Marner and trade him to fill holes on this team.
We need some speed on defence and we need a power forward.
Marner just isn’t anything close to an $11 million player. Luckily, he is paid much less moving forward.
If Dubas doesn’t have the balls to move him, they will both be somewhere else next season.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I wonder what Kyle’s reaction is to tonight’s no show vs Ottawa? He made a point to talk about the cultural problem within the room about not having assertive personalities in the offseason. He add a lot of ingredients but the team is behaving exactly the way it did in the past. Play tentative and disinterested, get blown out.

So we have to come to the conclusion that it is the core. We're not going to win with 40 ish mil being paid to 4 forwards. We just aren't. You have to fill your lineup with scrubs.

If we played a very structured game, north/south, defensively responsible, we could get away with it. But we don't. We play an expansive style.

It means that dumpster guys and foreign imports have to hit more often than not (by quite a margin). Thornton, Barabanov, Vesey, Holl, and maybe even Spezza are just not going to cut it for us.

Honestly, I have very little faith in Dubas. He claims to have suddenly realized what the Leafs need. He then brings in Thornton, Vesey, Simmonds and Bogosian. At least 3 of those guys can't play the style our coach is wanting to play. He then continues to draft players without any of the skillsets we are missing.

I think, for the second coach in a row, there's a disconnect between GM and coach.

 

[Stephen]

So we have to come to the conclusion that it is the core. We're not going to win with 40 ish mil being paid to 4 forwards. We just aren't. You have to fill your lineup with scrubs.

If we played a very structured game, north/south, defensively responsible, we could get away with it. But we don't. We play an expansive style.

It means that dumpster guys and foreign imports have to hit more often than not (by quite a margin). Thornton, Barabanov, Vesey, Holl, and maybe even Spezza are just not going to cut it for us.

Honestly, I have very little faith in Dubas. He claims to have suddenly realized what the Leafs need. He then brings in Thornton, Vesey, Simmonds and Bogosian. At least 3 of those guys can't play the style our coach is wanting to play. He then continues to draft players without any of the skillsets we are missing.

I think, for the second coach in a row, there's a disconnect between GM and coach.

If you read between the lines, the Leafs felt like they had to go out and get a bunch of babysitters to manage the young core. But you can't add these Marleau type older, over the hill guys and expect them to jolt the team and change the identity when you're playing the Big 4 the big minutes. I loved how Tavares looked rejuvenated and was grinding out there tonight, but Matthews, Nylander and Marner had tough games and Rielly's head is not screwed on right. And we won't talk about Fred because he's proven to be a dud. Any given night our core is just not reliable.

 

[Pookie]

Well on the plus side... the format of the season will silence all the moronic stats comparisons.

anyone who claims to understand how stats work would know that it’s futile to compare our stats played against 6 teams with some other team’s stats played against 6 different teams.

so success this season will be based purely on points and playoff run (if we get there). No hiding. Full accountability.

 

[DueDiligence]

Dubas thought that by adding one 32 year forward with grit the Leafs would be tougher.

 

[Pookie]

Dubas thought that by adding one 32 year forward with grit the Leafs would be tougher.

I like Simmonds. I wish they also kept Clifford but maybe he didn’t want to stay?

Clifford was a decent skater and it’s clear that this is going to be a tough road ahead. We haven’t hit Calgary and Edmonton yet.

 

[Fogelhund]

Fire Dubas!

Look, when your first overall, franchise player is 0 points and -3, and Marner another top offensive player, have games like this... it really wouldn't matter who the GM was. This isn't on Dubas... this is on the players who want to be MVP level paid, but have yet to play like it. Fire Dubas, bring in someone else... still doesn't make a difference.... Either Matty and Marner need to grow up and play to win, or we need a massive shake up. The peripheral stuff just doesn't matter, when your top guysplay like that. .

 

[Menzinger]

I wonder what Kyle’s reaction is to tonight’s no show vs Ottawa? He made a point to talk about the cultural problem within the room about not having assertive personalities in the offseason. He add a lot of ingredients but the team is behaving exactly the way it did in the past. Play tentative and disinterested, get blown out.

Id imagine probably nothing overly dramatic based on one game. If the team is performing like this after 5+ games it might be a different story.

The Sens outplayed the Leafs tonight but i doubt many people would claim that means they won't likely be last place in the division by seasons end

 

[DueDiligence]

I like Simmonds. I wish they also kept Clifford but maybe he didn’t want to stay?

Clifford was a decent skater and it’s clear that this is going to be a tough road ahead. We haven’t hit Calgary and Edmonton yet.

Simmonds is fine but he is going to get tired doing all the heavy lifting by himself.

 

[DueDiligence]

Look, when your first overall, franchise player is 0 points and -3, and Marner another top offensive player, have games like this... it really wouldn't matter who the GM was. This isn't on Dubas... this is on the players who want to be MVP level paid, but have yet to play like it. Fire Dubas, bring in someone else... still doesn't make a difference.... Either Matty and Marner need to grow up and play to win, or we need a massive shake up. The peripheral stuff just doesn't matter, when your top guysplay like that. .

It is up to the GM to decide on which players to build around. The top 4 all play the same way; all talent and no toughness.

 

[Stephen]

Id imagine probably nothing overly dramatic based on one game. If the team is performing like this after 5+ games it might be a different story.

The Sens outplayed the Leafs tonight but i doubt many people would claim that means they won't likely be last place in the division by seasons end

I don't think the Leafs are in danger of finishing last in the division. (If they do it's a short season and we have our pick, so it's not all bad). But it is frustrating that it seems like they haven't rebooted the culture of the room because it's the same old slacker/no show/no hunger/no urgency club that we've been witnessing since 2019-20.

 

[cesareborgia]

I'd rather have two Josh Anderson's than a Marner.

 

[Menzinger]

I don't think the Leafs are in danger of finishing last in the division. (If they do it's a short season and we have our pick, so it's not all bad). But it is frustrating that it seems like they haven't rebooted the culture of the room because it's the same old slacker/no show/no hunger/no urgency club that we've been witnessing since 2019-20.

I feel the frustration. But I just think the first 5ish games of the season are going to be rough regardless of how the dressing room dynamics are. Guys tske time to warm up physically and with each other (especially new additions).

I used to think the preseason went on too long in the past but I thinknthese first couple games have really shown how useful they are for guys

 

[Leafsfan74]

Simmonds is fine but he is going to get tired doing all the heavy lifting by himself.

They can always find a tough, physical forward if they want to. You can trade prospects or give young, hungry, physical players a shot. The mentality in the locker room has to be more about "us vs them" and a unified wolf pack mentality. Simmons is the type of player who can be a spark as long as others get angry too and draw a line in the sand.

Tomorrows game will show if they have come to play or not. You always want revenge in back to backs. It's still far too early, but they had better not enjoy losing. They should be personally offended by it.

The season is short, it's going to be competitive and mean.

 

[Fogelhund]

It is up to the GM to decide on which players to build around. The top 4 all play the same way; all talent and no toughness.

I don't see any blame to Dubas on that one. He didn't draft any of them, but he did bring in Tavares, which I think was a good move. He has to give these guys a chance to grow into their game, they are superstar level offensive talents, who have to be allowed to grow. Even now, after tonight's terrible display, it's too soon... but that time is coming, and it's coming soon.

I sure hope that the coach is hard on Matthews and Marner at this point. If they can't grow, than a shakeup is needed. Send Marner + Holl + pick to Columbus for Dubois + Savard.. NOW that would change the makeup of this team.

 

[Dave92]

I don't see any blame to Dubas on that one. He didn't draft any of them, but he did bring in Tavares, which I think was a good move. He has to give these guys a chance to grow into their game, they are superstar level offensive talents, who have to be allowed to grow. Even now, after tonight's terrible display, it's too soon... but that time is coming, and it's coming soon.

I sure hope that the coach is hard on Matthews and Marner at this point. If they can't grow, than a shakeup is needed. Send Marner + Holl + pick to Columbus for Dubois + Savard.. NOW that would change the makeup of this team.

The team president literally talked about building Marner a statue outside the rink 2 days ago, good luck trading him. Our management has inexperienced people at every level and it shows.

 

[Stephen]

I feel the frustration. But I just think the first 5ish games of the season are going to be rough regardless of how the dressing room dynamics are. Guys tske time to warm up physically and with each other (especially new additions).

I used to think the preseason went on too long in the past but I thinknthese first couple games have really shown how useful they are for guys

I hear ya, normally patience would be required to see how things shake out under such unique circumstances but I think last year left such a bad taste in my mouth that I would expect this group to want to go out and really try to redeem themselves. Instead it’s the same old habits with brand new excuses. Just looking at some of the other teams who are “contenders” why aren’t the Leafs flying out of the gate on pure desire to prove themselves?

 

[Fogelhund]

I hear ya, normally patience would be required to see how things shake out under such unique circumstances but I think last year left such a bad taste in my mouth that I would expect this group to want to go out and really try to redeem themselves. Instead it’s the same old habits with brand new excuses. Just looking at some of the other teams who are “contenders” why aren’t the Leafs flying out of the gate on pure desire to prove themselves?

That's it... where is the pride of Matthews and Marner in particular?

 

[Dave92]

That's it... where is the pride of Matthews and Marner in particular?

Their line is being hamstrung by a completely useless player who was on the 4th line of the worst team in the league at times last year.

It's on the coach.

 

[killer1980]

That's it... where is the pride of Matthews and Marner in particular?

You can't ask a kid in this day and age to care when he is getting millions of dollars a year. Dubas was the mistake. I've been around enough to know that bosses like to surround themselves with guys that kiss their butts and tell them they're wonderful. You don't have to look any further than below the 39th parallel to see that this is true. It won't work out any better up here than it did down there.

 

[Bomber0104]

That's it... where is the pride of Matthews and Marner in particular?

It'll probably return right around the time they need new contracts.

 

[Fogelhund]

Their line is being hamstrung by a completely useless player who was on the 4th line of the worst team in the league at times last year.

It's on the coach.

Please.. if two MVP level pay guys can't find a way to play better than that, put up 0 points combined and a -4, and you want to blame the coach? Seriously, these two guys should be able to carry just about anyone. It's not like this is a sudden thing with these two either.. pretty much the same last playins... just play to score points, not to win... and half effort. We've seen Crosby carry around crap, and resulting in crap getting well paid... top players make others better.. they don't get pulled down that much, by one guy on their line. They need to be better.

 

[Stephen]

That's it... where is the pride of Matthews and Marner in particular?

What I haven't liked in the two games to start the season is Matthews lack of scoring has seemed to erode his quality of play away from the puck. He's engaging more physically but he seems to be running around quite a bit too. For all the talk about stronger defensive play to start the year it really went out the window when they started the Harlem Globetrotter puck management in pursuit of offense tonight. There's quite a lack of focus in his game right now and the only short term solution is he scores one early, feels himself and snaps out of it.

 

[Dave92]

Please.. if two MVP level pay guys can't find a way to play better than that, put up 0 points combined and a -4, and you want to blame the coach? Seriously, these two guys should be able to carry just about anyone. It's not like this is a sudden thing with these two either.. pretty much the same last playins... just play to score points, not to win... and half effort. We've seen Crosby carry around crap, and resulting in crap getting well paid... top players make others better.. they don't get pulled down that much, by one guy on their line. They need to be better.

Marner is not an MVP level player, he's had 1 really elite season and was never in the discussion.

Thinking you can just coach/ manage like an idiot because your players are so good it should just work. Is how actual MVP players like McDavid and Drai consistently miss the playoffs.

Thornton does nothing he hardly ever touches the puck, doesn't defend. And he played more than Tavares and Nylander.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

I really believe that the issues plaguing the leafs rests on the shoulders of the gm coach and core. All three need to be changed in some regard. I'd keep matthews and Tavares, get rid of keefe and dubas and let the new gm trade marner, andersen, and Reilly.