Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

[Throw More Waffles]

Rantanen without McKinnon is trash. Marner>>rantanen ainec

Hmm. Pretty sure Rantanen without Mac would be similar to Marner without Tavares. 60-70 point players.

Yep. Stats check out.

 

[93LEAFS]

Pretty questionable 2018 draft? What? Sandin, Durzi, SDA, Hollowell were great picks. 2019 draft, he drafted a steal in Robertson (Sandin/Kapanen level prospect). He traded down in the draft to get both Sandin and SDA instead of just Bokk.

And what? Muzzin trade was fantastic. From all the cap-clearing deals, to the trades to give us the best D-group we've ever had in 20 years, there's a ton dope moves he's made (and you can search it up).

But the point I want to drive across to my fellow Leaf fans is look at the depth we have. Our team has NEVER had a consistent pipeline of prospects and competitive competition for the bottom-6. Take a look at ALL the cheap signings he's done every year. Heck, take a look at this year at our competition for the bottom-6. Kapanen (When Hyman comes back), Mikaheleyv (Signing), Kerfoot (Trade), Moore (Signing), Timashov (Draft), Petan (Trade), Agostino (Signing), Read (Signing), Shore (Signing), Spezza (Signing), etc.

SDA was a bad pick and has lost value since the draft. Durzi and Hollowell were two players sent back to junior again, if are 2nd and 4th rounders are in the CHL at 20, we should be disappointed.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I mean most GM's sign bad contracts.... Just so happens ours signs them on our very best, elite players.

Yeah I want a perfect world where our GM signs all perfect contracts. But if needing to make a choice, I would much rather our best, elite players be given overpaid contracts rather than shitty or average players. Matthews/Marner can grow into those contracts over time potentially with player growth or the salary-cap growth. Shitty/average players don't, you're just stuck with them forever.

 

[93LEAFS]

A bit odd given your defences of Hunters selections - wouldn't you say it's fairly premature to say?

Sandin alone looks like a hit. SDA this season looks like hes heading in the right direction in terms of his development amd Durzi was used as a key part in the Muzzin trade. So at the moment its tracking to have 3 positive returns so far.

SDA has clearly lost value since the draft. Durzi was not valued as a 2nd rounder in that trade, and even Mirtle said at the time we were considering not giving him an ELC. I mean, nothing about 2018 shows it to be a strong draft yet, people are trying to claim it is. SDA was a reach at the time, and his value has lessened since. You don't see me defending Rasanen, and I only said if Korshkov becomes a top 9 player, not that he is one. Dermott and Grundstrom are clearly strong picks for where they were drafted.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Yeah I want a perfect world where our GM signs all perfect contracts. But if needing to make a choice, I would much rather our best, elite players be given overpaid contracts rather than ****ty or average players. Matthews/Marner can grow into those contracts over time potentially with player growth or the salary-cap growth. ****ty/average players don't, you're just stuck with them forever.

Exactly. That being said, Dubas has left himself a very minimal margin for error so he'll have to be careful.

 

[93LEAFS]

you downplay dubas involvement in signing JT then overvalue hunters pick of Matthews? yeah your bias isnt obvious at all

Explain to me where in what I just said I credited Hunter with Matthews? I credited him with Marner over Hanifin. But, nice Stawman...

 

[Superstar]

How about signing your guys to fair market deals and not signing UFA plugs to bad contracts as well instead? Both are bad in a hard cap league so yippee for us

We've only ****** up in one regard instead of doing it multiple times, what a win



It's atrocious, how in God's name you can screw up this bad with this much leverage boggles the mind, you'd struggle to do this badly if you tried

Yep...Marner is paid 48% (or about $30 million) of his deal in the first 12 months...and Dubas still had to overpay with no leverage...frickin ridiculous! These players don't deserve to be Toronto Maple Leafs if they don't do anything in the playoffs the next few years when they've taken their organization to the cleaners with the kind of greed they've shown. Remember too that Marner gets about $2 million in endorsements BECAUSE he plays for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Me first, team and organization second! It's laughable that Marner is paid over $3.7 million more than Kyle Connor while having a shorter term.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

SDA was a bad pick and has lost value since the draft. Durzi and Hollowell were two players sent back to junior again, if are 2nd and 4th rounders are in the CHL at 20, we should be disappointed.

lol what. You do realize not all prospects are in the NHL before age of 19 or 20 right? 22-23 years is the usual age for players like that. I.e The Timashov/Moore/Hyman/Dermott/Braccos type of players.

 

[93LEAFS]

lol what. You do realize not all prospects are in the NHL before age of 19 or 20 right? 22-23 years is the usual age for players like that. I.e The Timashov/Moore/Hyman/Dermott/Braccos type of players.

Durzi and Hollowell were both AHL eligible. I didnt expect them in the NHL, but I sure as hell expected players taken in the 2nd and 4th round to be AHL ready at 20. Because I would expect the exact same thing if they weren’t re-entries.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

what real gms sign RFAs for

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Hmm. Pretty sure Rantanen without Mac would be similar to Marner without Tavares. 60-70 point players.

Yep. Stats check out.

Nope.

 

[thewave]

Kyle "Overpay" Dubas

Its only money guys amirite?!

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Durzi and Hollowell were both AHL eligible. I didnt expect them in the NHL, but I sure as hell expected players taken in the 2nd and 4th round to be AHL ready at 20. Because I would expect the exact same thing if they weren’t re-entries.

Where did you want them to play in the AHL? You had Rosen, Borgman, Sandin, Lilijegren, Subban in the D-group with only LoVerde as the experienced vet D.

You can't just stick two young prospects into the AHL whenever. There's a pipeline to maintain, and Durzi/Hollowell in the juniors last year made perfect sense. Durzi was traded as part of the Muzzin trade and Hollowell should do well in the AHL this year possibly.

 

[saffronleaf]

I think Rantanen is better than Marner.

Fair value for Marner should have been 9m x 6 years or 6.5m x 3 years.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

How is it the Leafs got the short end of the stick on every really big RFA we had.
What do u all think of Dubas now? I thought he was doing alright. but every time another RFA signs the Marner contract looks worse and worse.
Wish we never let Lou go for Dubas.

 

[Walshy7]

Explain to me where in what I just said I credited Hunter with Matthews? I credited him with Marner over Hanifin. But, nice Stawman...

"the big name picks" your words pluralized here. so who are the big names after marner you were trying to attribute to hunter? Dermott? hardly a big name hasnt proved to be top 4 yet

 

[93LEAFS]

Where did you want them to play in the AHL? You had Rosen, Borgman, Sandin, Lilijegren, Subban in the D-group with only LoVerde as the experienced vet D.

You can't just stick two young prospects into the AHL whenever. There's a pipeline to maintain, and Durzi/Hollowell in the juniors last year made perfect sense. Durzi was traded as part of the Muzzin trade and Hollowell should do well in the AHL this year possibly.

You create space for valued prospects. You don’t draft guys who will be overagers to send them back down. I had the same issues with Brooks.

Really it isn’t that hard. You don’t sign Jordan Subban. If you draft a CHL player who is about to turn 20 in the 2nd round they better be AHL ready and you better have a spot for them. If I’m 2 years, Robertson still needed to be in the OHL, we would be rightfully pissed. We used the same draft capital on Durzi.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Kyle "Overpay" Dubas

Its only money guys amirite?!

Dubas: *Signs a gazillion underrated depth players for below-market value contracts + signs average-good key pieces to good contracts.*

thewave:

Dubas: *Overpays the two 'franchise' forwards by a total of 3 million combined*

thewave: HOLY SHIT, GET RID OF THIS GUY

 

[93LEAFS]

"the big name picks" your words pluralized here. so who are the big names after marner you were trying to attribute to hunter? Dermott? hardly a big name hasnt proved to be top 4 yet

Fine, every pick while Dubas was here until 2018 was Hunter and his staff. The others were previously acquired. Seems people are trying to credit the 2015 draft to Dubas in aspects, where he had no control over the draft board. All others were prior to either Hunter or Dubas arriving.

 

[Boutette]

I think Rantanen is better than Marner.

Fair value for Marner should have been 9m x 6 years or 6.5m x 3 years.

Rantanen is a PP specialist. He had 20 fewer ES points than Marner last year, and 40% more OZ starts and didn't play a minute of PK.

 

[Walshy7]

Fine, every pick while Dubas was here until 2018 was Hunter and his staff. The others were previously acquired. Seems people are trying to credit the 2015 draft to Dubas in aspects, where he had no control over the draft board. All others were prior to either Hunter or Dubas arriving.

ok care to point out these "big name picks" then? marner and.......

 

[LeafingTheWay]

You create space for valued prospects. You don’t draft guys who will be overagers to send them back down. I had the same issues with Brooks.

Really it isn’t that hard. You don’t sign Jordan Subban. If you draft a CHL player who is about to turn 20 in the 2nd round they better be AHL ready and you better have a spot for them. If I’m 2 years, Robertson still needed to be in the OHL, we would be rightfully pissed. We used the same draft capital on Durzi.

You don't play an entire team of prospects/youngsters in the AHL. The AHL is not to be confused with a prospects league. AHL is a pro-league, not a league for solely youngsters.

I want to emphasize this:

You DON'T play an entire group of all 20-25 year old Ds in the AHL. You DON'T play a RHD-group of Lilijegren (19 years old), Durzi (20 years old), Hollowell (20 years old) in the AHL. That's ridiculous.

^ Aside from my above explaination, Dubas is known for his prospects development, so I'll trust him here.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Dubas: *Signs a gazillion underrated depth players for below-market value contracts + signs average-good key pieces to good contracts.*

thewave:

Dubas: *Overpays the two 'franchise' forwards by a total of 3 million combined*

thewave: HOLY ****, GET RID OF THIS GUY

All three combined is not even a 3 mill overpayment. 2 mill is pushing it, and most of it comes from Marner.

 

[93LEAFS]

ok care to point out these "big name picks" then? marner and.......

The ones people praise such as Dermott, Bracco etc. There isn’t any evidence Dubas is a good drafter, yet this is constantly claimed. The only evidence is Sandin. SDA and Durzi are both less valuable than when they were drafted. I said at the time Durzi was a bad pick, and if he wasn’t in the AHL at 20 it’s a pretty ridiculous pick.

 

[Boutette]

How is it the Leafs got the short end of the stick on every really big RFA we had.
What do u all think of Dubas now? I thought he was doing alright. but every time another RFA signs the Marner contract looks worse and worse.
Wish we never let Lou go for Dubas.

Lou? The guy who vastly overpaid Marleau (basically a 40+ pt player for 9mil a year), who signed Zaitsev to a contract no one though we could get rid of and then went to the Island and paid a guy who was no longer good enough for Toronto's 4th line 3 mil a year? That Lou?