Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

[Walshy7]

I want Dubas INVESTIGATED!!!

How DARE he do this to us.
How Dare he!!!!

These overpayments aren’t just incompetence at this point. It’s clearly more than that. INVESTIGATE him.


How DARE he.

hahaha, its passed your bedtime kid

 

[LeafingTheWay]

He literally signed JT (which wasn't a hard), and had a pretty questionable 2018 draft outside of Sandin. The big-name picks were all Hunter and his staff, some of who remain. Marner was Hunter and Hofford primarily, there was no way they weren't taking him barring Eichel or McDavid slipping to us. The only big move win that can be solely attributed to Dubas is Tavares. His trade for Barrie looks good, and hopefully that's a win. Muzzin is a good add, but if we are still a first round team trading what we gave up is clearly not going to be worth it.

Pretty questionable 2018 draft? What? Sandin, Durzi, SDA, Hollowell were great picks. 2019 draft, he drafted a steal in Robertson (Sandin/Kapanen level prospect). He traded down in the draft to get both Sandin and SDA instead of just Bokk.

And what? Muzzin trade was fantastic. From all the cap-clearing deals, to the trades to give us the best D-group we've ever had in 20 years, there's a ton dope moves he's made (and you can search it up).

But the point I want to drive across to my fellow Leaf fans is look at the depth we have. Our team has NEVER had a consistent pipeline of prospects and competitive competition for the bottom-6. Take a look at ALL the cheap signings he's done every year. Heck, take a look at this year at our competition for the bottom-6. Kapanen (When Hyman comes back), Mikaheleyv (Signing), Kerfoot (Trade), Moore (Signing), Timashov (Draft), Petan (Trade), Agostino (Signing), Read (Signing), Shore (Signing), Spezza (Signing), etc.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

How can Dubas’s possibly defend his contracts given the Rantanen contract.

Leaf fans should be MUCH angrier about this.

 

[Cappuccino]

That Rantanen deal does not look good on Dubas. Not at all.

Rantanen also probably got that much because of the Marner contract in the first place. Could have even been a bit lower.

 

[Walshy7]

A bit odd given your defences of Hunters selections - wouldn't you say it's fairly premature to say?

Sandin alone looks like a hit. SDA this season looks like hes heading in the right direction in terms of his development amd Durzi was used as a key part in the Muzzin trade. So at the moment its tracking to have 3 positive returns so far.

bias is biased man, that guys posts changed the minute dubas got hired. His prospect reports were really good until dubas was hired then there was a negative slant on every pick since, coincidence? no

 

[Kiwi]

This is just an indication Leaf fans have unrealistic expectations.

Not a single GM in this league is perfect...

Before the Matthews/Marner contract, I did not see any weakness in Dubas. All his moves were strong and he built this team into a contender with a fantastic pipeline. NOW after the Matthews/Marner contract, Dubas weakness in star RFA negotiations is his weakness. There are literally no other weakness for Dubas that I see.

The good news? We do not have any star RFAs left to sign for a long time.

I don't expect perfect but our contracts are clearly outside league norms

I don't mind Dubas generally but this is completely unacceptable, how the hell do you go into RFA negostiations with most of the leverage and get bent over like this?

There is no defending this, there just isn't

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Everyone is p*ssed when comparing Marner's contracts to the other RFA contracts that have been signed since Marner signed.

However, a comedian who participated in the Mrtyle/Siegel podcast put it in perspective. He was p*ssed that Marner got almost 11 million, until he remembered what 11 million used to look like - David Clarkson and Dave Bolland.

Ask yourself this: who do you think will be the most likely to live up to his AAV for the entire length of his contract:
Drew Doughty, 29, at 11 million until he is 37?
Eric Karlsson, 29, at 11. 5 million until he is 37?
Artemi Panarin, 27, at 11.642 until he is 34?
Mitch Marner, 22, at 10.893 million until he is 28?

I don't think looking at bad contracts is a smart way to justify more bad contracts. I like alot of the moves Dubas has made but the Marner deal is a bad one.

 

[I Believe]

Gotta look at the roster as a whole. We have a damn good one.
Overpaid on the Marner contract but we save money elsewhere.

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Kapanen or Johnsson hit 60 points, and then we have a 60 pt player or 2 for just over 3 mil.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

How can Dubas’s possibly defend his contracts given the Rantanen contract.

Leaf fans should be MUCH angrier about this.

Why? The better player got more money!!!!

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Pretty questionable 2018 draft? What? Sandin, Durzi, SDA, Hollowell were great picks. 2019 draft, he drafted a steal in Robertson (Sandin/Kapanen level prospect). He traded down in the draft to get both Sandin and SDA instead of just Bokk.

And what? Muzzin trade was fantastic. From all the cap-clearing deals, to the trades to give us the best D-group we've ever had in 20 years, there's a ton dope moves he's made (and you can search it up).

But the point I want to drive across to my fellow Leaf fans is look at the depth we have. Our team has NEVER had a consistent pipeline of prospects and competitive competition for the bottom-6. Take a look at ALL the cheap signings he's done every year. Heck, take a look at this year at our competition for the bottom-6. Kapanen (When Hyman comes back), Mikaheleyv (Signing), Kerfoot (Trade), Moore (Signing), Timashov (Draft), Petan (Trade), Agostino (Signing), Read (Signing), Shore (Signing), Spezza (Signing), etc.

This. Leaf fans have no idea how bad our development system was pre-salary cap era, especially when we had an competitive advantage over most teams regarding finances. As great as a coach that Pat Quinn was, he was very mediocre when given the dual responsibility as Leafs GM. Dubas has created an excellent development system which is only going to get better henceforth.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I don't expect perfect but our contracts are clearly outside league norms

I don't mind Dubas generally but this is completely unacceptable, how the hell do you go into RFA negostiations with most of the leverage and get bent over like this?

There is no defending this, there just isn't

No one's defending those contracts? Matthews/Marner contracts are bad.

But if that's your only thing against Dubas, then what's the issue you're worried about going forward? If Dubas overpaid those two, and combined that with other shitty moves such as signing guys like Komarov/Martin/overpaid-depth, then it would be an issue. But it isn't lol.

 

[Gallagbi]

Crappy negotiations confirmed, but not really a surprise. We all knew the Marner and Matthews contracts were overpayments.

Now we gotta hope they play up to those numbers. Everyone involved has put extra pressure on themselves with these deals.

 

[IPS]

I don't expect perfect but our contracts are clearly outside league norms

I don't mind Dubas generally but this is completely unacceptable, how the hell do you go into RFA negostiations with most of the leverage and get bent over like this?

There is no defending this, there just isn't

I love the trades Dubas has made. Muzzin's good, Barrie's good and if the preseasons any indication - he pulled a rabbit out of a hat with Ceci.

But good f***ing grief those contracts SUCK.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

This. Leaf fans have no idea how bad our dvelopment system was pre-salary cap era, when we had an competitive advantage with finances. As great as a coach that Pat Quinn was, he was very mediocre when given the dual responsibility as Leafs GM. Dubas has created an excellent development system which is only going to get better henceforth.

Exactly. A lot of these Leaf fans don't understand how good we have it now lol. I remember the days when we were lucky to have even one guy come out of our pipeline. Now we have a never-ending supply coming through.

 

[Menzinger]

This. Leaf fans have no idea how bad our development system was pre-salary cap era, especially when we had an competitive advantage over most teams regarding finances. As great as a coach that Pat Quinn was, he was very mediocre when given the dual responsibility as Leafs GM. Dubas has created an excellent development system which is only going to get better henceforth.

Leafs ahd probably some.of.the worst drafting and development in all of pro sports prior to recent years. Which is shocking given how wealthy a team the Leafs are

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Why? The better player got more money!!!!

It's debatable who's better.

And 1.5 million more per year? What a f***ING joke.

 

[Cappuccino]

Do we have some kind of consensus how much our stars are overpaid (in total)?

 

[Superstar]

It's debatable who's better.

And 1.5 million more per year? What a ****ING joke.

Yup...I don't think Sakic would trade Rantanen 1-for-1 for Marner.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Exactly. A lot of these Leaf fans don't understand how good we have it now lol. I remember the days when we were lucky to have even one guy come out of our pipeline. Now we have a never-ending supply coming through.

Yep, it was so frustrating watching teams in the 90's and 00's with strict scouting spends such as: New Jersey, go on to unearth gems like John Madden and Brian Ralfalski, and ultimately become key contributors to their cup dynasty. Toronto finally has gotten their shit together with development, which will off-set these marginal overpayments. Yes, I would of also liked to see Marner and Matthews take long term team-friendly contracts, but it really isn't that big of a deal like some people are making it out to be.

 

[Kiwi]

No one's defending those contracts? Matthews/Marner contracts are bad.

But if that's your only thing against Dubas, then what's the issue you're worried about going forward? If Dubas overpaid those two, and combined that with other ****ty moves such as signing guys like Komarov/Martin/overpaid-depth, then it would be an issue. But it isn't lol.

How about signing your guys to fair market deals and not signing UFA plugs to bad contracts as well instead? Both are bad in a hard cap league so yippee for us

We've only ****** up in one regard instead of doing it multiple times, what a win

I love the trades Dubas has made. Muzzin's good, Barrie's good and if the preseasons any indication - he pulled a rabbit out of a hat with Ceci.

But good ****ing grief those contracts SUCK.

It's atrocious, how in God's name you can screw up this bad with this much leverage boggles the mind, you'd struggle to do this badly if you tried

 

[LeafingTheWay]

How about signing your guys to fair market deals and not signing UFA plugs to bad contracts as well instead? Both are bad in a hard cap league so yippee for us

We've only ****** up in one regard instead of doing it multiple times, what a win



It's atrocious, how in God's name you can screw up this bad with this much leverage boggles the mind, you'd struggle to do this badly if you tried

lol dude, this just shows how spoiled Leaf fans are now. You're calling for Dubas's head because of just a 3 mill overpay? That's literally the only bad thing that's been done ... Look at our team and what on earth are you disappointed with???

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Yep, it was so frustrating watching teams in the 90's and 00's with strict scouting spends such as: New Jersey, go on to unearth gems like John Madden and Brian Ralfalski, and ultimately become key contributors to their cup dynasty. Toronto finally has gotten their **** together with development, which will off-set these marginal overpayments. Yes, I would of also liked to see Marner and Matthews take long term team-friendly contracts, but it really isn't that big of a deal like some people are making it out to be.

Cheers to the future man, we're going to have that cup dynasty now instead of other teams like NJ (Just joking, one cup is all I ask lol)

 

[hfman]

Do we have some kind of consensus how much our stars are overpaid (in total)?

sure. let me get my calculator

oh wait. there's 10 or 20 other guys here who will surely bust out the stats graphs and pie charts along with the scientific calculators and post a 450-line mathematical message explaining everything down to the penny

in fact they're working on it right now, a splendid way to spend a Saturday night

 

[Skin Tape Session]

It's debatable who's better.

And 1.5 million more per year? What a ****ING joke.

Rantanen without McKinnon is trash. Marner>>rantanen ainec

 

[BertCorbeau]

lol dude, this just shows how spoiled Leaf fans are now. You're calling for Dubas's head because of just a 3 mill overpay? That's literally the only bad thing that's been done ... Look at our team and what on earth are you disappointed with???

I mean most GM's sign bad contracts.... Just so happens ours signs them on our very best, elite players.