Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

[capfit9]

This Leafs organization never learns; Hired a rookie GM in JFJ and he completely screwed it up and its happening again

 

[MyBudJT]

I get that hes probably your favorite player. But that's something very different from contract value....

Centers and goal scores make more than playmaking wingers. That's the norm across the league

He's not my favourite player, Matthews is my favourite player...

 

[X66]

Meh, at the end of the day, those other teams didn't have a player making $11 million on their cap before they started making their deals, they compared to what was already on the team.

The narrative started off that the Tavares signing wasn't going to allow them to keep the big three.

Turns out it did, even if it cost them a lot more to do it, the team is still much better like this than without Tavares.

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

Whatever. Let's just get the real games started and go out and win so I can stop hearing about dollars and cents. I'm sick of it.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I actually thought maybe Dubas was learning, he did a good job in dumping cap this off-season but the Marner deal (as well as the Matthews deal) proved he still doesn't get to sit with the adults, he's still at the kids table.

 

[93LEAFS]

Rantanen's deal IS heavily front loaded too - like 34 million over his first 3 years.

It has no lockout protection and its all in base-salary. Both factors that would make it significantly more tradable than Marner's even if it was the exact same dollar amount.

 

[IPS]

lmao I'm still soaking this one in....

How did Dubas do that f***ing bad of a job? Did Steve Yzerrman and Jeremy Jacobs pay Dubas a bunch of money under the table to f*** up the big 3's contracts?

 

[Byron Bitz]

Dubas should have waited to use this comparable before signing Marner, could have got him for 9.5

 

[IPS]

Whatever. Let's just get the real games started and go out and win so I can stop hearing about dollars and cents. I'm sick of it.

Lol dude, there's never going to be an end to it.

All of the talking heads are going to be on this non-stop. It will be there after every loss, and in between every intermission.

 

[7even]

This Leafs organization never learns; Hired a rookie GM in JFJ and he completely screwed it up and its happening again

You're actually gonna call the JFJ Leafs the same as this roster huh

So much melodrama

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Ok do the breakdown then that equals 5 mil. Nylander isn't overpaid at all, so 5 mil between Marner and Matthews then..? Rantanen isn't even paid fairly, he's actually a bit underpaid.

not only that but 5 mill spent on your core or on a albatross like alzner or the other 20 or so contracts that look absolutely stupid right now. you pay your core . did we over pay . yeah sure why not.

as long as the media and leaf fans are half a second from lynching and hounding you like a mob you will always have to overpay for players the only ones that will come willingly are the ones that want the Rockstar life(even then they have a short shelf life when it comes to being ridiculed non stop) most like the privacy 80% of the rest of organizations can offer.

With the Leafs you are under a microscope the moment your drafted, signed or added to the organization. it is what it is.

 

[Menzinger]

You're actually gonna call the JFJ Leafs the same as this roster huh

So much melodrama

Yep.

Like I think folks should be a bit irked by the Rantanen deal, but that suddenly doesnt mean the Leafs don't have Matthew's, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Barrie, Andersen ect all under the cap for the season. That this team isnt by far the best Leafs team of the salary cap era.

 

[deprw]

Atleast channel your anger towards where it needs to be.

Marner just took what was available to him, nothing more nothing less.

MLSE appointed that dumb **** Shanahan with no god damn experience running a hockey team who decided to put his eggs in a rookie GM's basket and we handed out the worst RFA contracts of the cap era.

I channel my anger towards Marner, it was pure greed from beginning with toxic negotiation tactics all along. Dubas caved, but I'm not going buy anything Marner endorses or cheer for him. He wanted Hart esque contract and was willing to take that burden on his shoulder. Only acceptable level on his play is to be Art Ross, Hart or Conn Smythe contender every season. Nothing more and nothing less. As a fan I expect that. He tried to pose as some kind of home town hero and now his contract might cost us change to contend. It was choice to demand that crazy amount of money.

As employee I mirror my quality to my pay and if I'm overpaid I know what that means. Pressure.

I'm not saying that Dubas didn't screw those negotiations, but Marner made sure that I'm not a fan anymore. Ever. As GM Dubas has to live with that contract and need to build team despite those poor contracts. He succeed this summer, so he did his part and did it well.

 

[Drytoast]

Dubas should have waited to use this comparable before signing Marner, could have got him for 9.5

Nope.

As we have just learned. There is everywhere else and then there is the Toronto Maple Leafs. Where you are a movie star if you play here and deserve everything.

*grumble grumble grumble

 

[93LEAFS]

I channel my anger towards Marner, it was pure greed from beginning with toxic negotiation tactics all along. Dubas caved, but I'm not going buy anything Marner endorses or cheer for him. He wanted Hart esque contract and was willing to take that burden on his shoulder. Only acceptable level on his play is to be Art Ross, Hart or Conn Smythe contender every season. Nothing more and nothing less. As a fan I expect that. He tried to pose as some kind of home town hero and now his contract might cost us change to contend. It was choice to demand that crazy amount of money.

As employee I mirror my quality to my pay and if I'm overpaid I know what that means. Pressure.

I'm not saying that Dubas didn't screw those negotiations, but Marner made sure that I'm not a fan anymore. Ever. As GM Dubas has to live with that contract and need to build team despite those poor contracts. He succeed this summer, so he did his part and did it well.

What do you honestly expect to happen when Dubas caved to Matthews so quickly? Matthews contract is way better for the player than Marner's. For a guy who has missed significant time in the last 2 seasons, and only gave up 1 UFA year? Why should Marner be expected to not be treated the same when he just let the Leafs in points the last 2 seasons. You can't blame 3 different contracts each individually on the player.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

It has no lockout protection and its all in base-salary. Both factors that would make it significantly more tradable than Marner's even if it was the exact same dollar amount.

Who cares about the tradeability of Marner's deal? I mean there are a lot of reasons to not like it....but we are never trading him so who cares how tradeable it is.

 

[Legion34]

Ok seriously, what the **** gives here? Honestly.

I'm legitimately suspicious. None of the Canadian teams could get their RFA's on better deals than what the American counterparts got theirs on.

Point - who' EASILY the best player out of Boeser, Laine, and Tkachuk - got by freaking FAR the best contract out of that bunch that opted for the 3 year deals.

Now Rantanen - who I don't even think is better than Marner - just completely freaking destroyed us.

Cap friendly tax calculator. Take a look

 

[Legion34]

Given the structure it should have been closer to 10 for 5. Dubas didn't use the tools at hand to drive down cap-hit. Those things shouldn't just automatically be offered in the structure.

Signing bonuses are mutually beneficial.

 

[93LEAFS]

Who cares about the tradeability of Marner's deal? I mean there are a lot of reasons to not like it....but we are never trading him so who cares how tradeable it is.

Flexibility to make moves is always important and valued. To just ignore it is pointless. No one thought Mike Richards or Jeff Carter would be moved. Flexibility is an asset. Marner and Matthews deal are significantly less attractive until July 2nd of 2022. To just blindly work on the assumption you will never trade someone (unless you gave them a full NTC), should never be the logic of someone operating a professional sports operation.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Flexibility to make moves is always important and valued. To just ignore it is pointless. No one thought Mike Richards or Jeff Carter would be moved. Flexibility is an asset. Marner and Matthews deal are significantly less attractive until July 2nd of 2022. To just blindly work on the assumption you will never trade someone (unless you gave them a full NTC), should never be the logic of someone operating a professional sports operation.

Like I said I don't like the deals but we are never trading them so I can't be bothered to care about that.

 

[93LEAFS]

Signing bonuses are mutually beneficial.

No they aren't. Frontloading is, but signing bonuses with the contract lockout protected as much as possible aren't. If you put significant signing bonuses in just the first two years maybe. But after that, they aren't beneficial due to the fact a bunch of teams hates paying everything at once, which hurts tradability. If you frontloaded the hell out of the deal in 2019/2020 and 2020/21 with bonuses fine, and then switch it to base salary fine. But, these contracts aren't that beneficial to us, due to the fact by the time the excess value kicks in they have a full NMC in one year.

 

[93LEAFS]

Like I said I don't like the deals but we are never trading them so I can't be bothered to care about that.

I think its a stupid approach. A GM acknowledging they are never going to trade someone or just accepting it is beyond stupid and short-sighted.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Cap friendly tax calculator. Take a look

Can you explain why the players/agents are giving their tax advantage to the billionaire owners?

Wouldn’t it really go like this?

Point: “I want this cap percentage/term based on comparables.”

Gm: “but you pay less taxes.”

Point: “wow. That sure is great for me.”

Wouldn’t that be the end?

I’m trying to imagine the gm responding to that by saying “No. we’re subtracting your tax advantage out of your total contract value. This will benefit our billionaire owners at the expense of you. And you’ll just suck it up for some reason.”

I just find it hard to believe that Point and his agent would respond to that by simply saying “ok, no problem.”.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I think its a stupid approach. A GM acknowledging they are never going to trade someone or just accepting it is beyond stupid and short-sighted.

In what world are we ever trading Mitch Marner? It isn't stupid it is reality. Marner will not be traded inside the first 5 years of his contract....the last year is the only year where it is even realistic to think about it and at that point all the money is paid out anyways. It's just a waste of time to even spend the time criticizing it when there are actual problems with the deals.

 

[93LEAFS]

In what world are we ever trading Mitch Marner? It isn't stupid it is reality. Marner will not be traded inside the first 5 years of his contract....the last year is the only year where it is even realistic to think about it and at that point all the money is paid out anyways. It's just a waste of time to even spend the time criticizing it when there are actual problems with the deals.

He has a full NMC at that point. You have to entertain the liquidity of an asset. Say someone is willing to trade something like a Seth Jones? You want that deal to be as appealing as possible to mid-tier teams. Which it isn't until a new CBA is signed. No one thought Mike Richards would get traded from Philly, and then 3 short years later he was. If you are going to put things in contracts which heavily favor them, and impact their trade value, it should be driving down AAV. In this case, they just seem to be thrown in there. Which is a reflection of terrible negotiation and avoiding using the leverage you have.