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Olympics: Korea hockey teams granted place in OG2018

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Namejs said:
Sorry, but it's painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Hockey is not a global sport. The further down the ranks you go, the weaker the teams are. And that regression is not linear, it's exponential.

The differences between 20-something ranked teams (Korea/Lithuania/etc.) and the 2nd tier nations like Germany/Belarus/etc. are H-U-G-E. They're enormous. A gap the size of the Grand Canyon. You get the idea.

You have a team comprised solely of elite professional athletes, most of whom are pretty much millionaires on the one hand, while on the other hand you have semi-pro or straight up amateur players, who play hockey alongside their everyday responsibilities and day jobs.

What the Koreans have done is they've bought a few pro players from North America, so that their national team wouldn't be as terrible. It's not going to improve their hockey pyramid and it's not going to expand the game of hockey either.

In fact, the expansion of the game of hockey is being hindered, because nations that would've actually gained from the added exposure (such as, say, Denmark) are not going to be there.
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You're missing the point. There's no argument that Latvia is leaps better than Korea. What I'm saying is the absence of Latvia or Germany in the Olympics is no big loss. Korea is not replacing Sweden, Finland or Russia. The usual top 7 or so teams will all be at the Olympics, along with 3 or 4 countries at Latvia's level. If Latvia can't be a top 11 country, then what makes them so deserving of being at the Olympics? Just so they can get exposure? Their place needs to be earned. Do you think the top teams care if they face Latvia or Korea? 9 times out of 10, the top teams will destroy either Latvia or Korea.

And I never mentioned Lithuania. There is a group of countries one tier below Austria/Slovenia/Kazakhstan/Italy. That group would consist of Hungary/Britain/Korea/Japan/Ukraine/Poland. These countries are not good enough to break into the top 18, but they are the countries that are mainstays in the Div 1A, or bounce between 1A and 1B, because they are too good to remain in 1B. Like I said, they are better than you give them credit for.

And while on the topic of Korea's team, I'd even argue that the addition of the foreigners Swift and Young actually hurt the Korean national team because they seem to have lost that fighting spirit and cohesiveness from the year earlier in 2013 when they played quite well in beating Hungary. Perhaps they'd be better off using actual Koreans who actually want to play for their country, rather than using foreigners who are using Korea as a means to play in the Olympics just to have the chance to play against Crosby.
 
Well, it is what it is. Korea playing such a tournament might be interesting in a good way.

It's just a bit of a shame that teams like Latvia, Germany, Denmark, and Norway don't have the best material when trying to get to the olympics, that's all.
 
BayStreetBully said:
What I'm saying is the absence of Latvia or Germany in the Olympics is no big loss. Korea is not replacing Sweden, Finland or Russia. The usual top 7 or so teams will all be at the Olympics, along with 3 or 4 countries at Latvia's level.
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No, you made two points.

Both of them are ridiculous, but only one of them is simply factually incorrect.

As for the first point ("absence of 2nd tier nations wouldn't be a loss"), that point is made purely from your own personal perspective, in which only realistic gold medal contenders are of any worth. In most team sports, that sort of approach to the major international events is unheard of. It's not just about winning gold medals or, say, winning the World Cup in football.

Absence of Latvia is no big loss for Canadian hockey fans, absence of Latvia is a huge loss for Latvian hockey fans, while the absence of Korea wouldn't be a loss to anyone.

As for the 2nd point ("Korea is a good team, and taking part in the OG will help grow hockey there"), nothing what you've said substantiates that claim.

If Latvia can't be a top 11 country, then what makes them so deserving of being at the Olympics? Just so they can get exposure? Their place needs to be earned. Do you think the top teams care if they face Latvia or Korea? 9 times out of 10, the top teams will destroy either Latvia or Korea.
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You don't seem to realize that adding Korea reduces the number of spots available to other countries. By default, 9 nations qualify for the Olympic Games through the IIHF world rankings automatically. As of this point, if this was the cut-off point, Latvia would've earned an automatic berth to the Olympic Games.

But you seem to be missing the point. It's not about Latvia, it's about a good team missing the Olympic Games because of Korea. It doesn't matter if it's going to be Denmark, Norway, Belarus, Germany or some other country.

Also, you keep mentioning the term Big 7. What is this Big 7 that you're talking about? If you included Slovakia in there, they are currently tied with Latvia in the world rankings and can just like Latvia they too can realistically miss the Olympics because of Korea.

And I never mentioned Lithuania. There is a group of countries one tier below Austria/Slovenia/Kazakhstan/Italy. That group would consist of Hungary/Britain/Korea/Japan/Ukraine/Poland. These countries are not good enough to break into the top 18, but they are the countries that are mainstays in the Div 1A, or bounce between 1A and 1B, because they are too good to remain in 1B. Like I said, they are better than you give them credit for.
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I mentioned Lithuania. Their national teams and the overall quality of their hockey pyramids are very similar.

Comparing Korea to UK/Ukraine/Hungary/etc. is absolutely ludicrous. Those are two different tiers of hockey. Korean hockey is comparable to the level of hockey played in Lithuania or Estonia.

Saying that they're the mainstays of DivIA is a load of BS. It was the single greatest achievement in Korean hockey to get there for the first time ever. You're just making things up now. :laugh: They might not promote to the 2nd tier ever again.

Their best actual Korean players haven't even been capable of proving themselves at the lowest minor pro level (Central Hockey League/Mestis).

And while on the topic of Korea's team, I'd even argue that the addition of the foreigners Swift and Young actually hurt the Korean national team because they seem to have lost that fighting spirit and cohesiveness from the year earlier in 2013 when they played quite well in beating Hungary. Perhaps they'd be better off using actual Koreans who actually want to play for their country, rather than using foreigners who are using Korea as a means to play in the Olympics just to have the chance to play against Crosby.
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:laugh:

If it wasn't for the foreigners, Korea would drop back to the 4th division, where they belong, as indicated by the fact that their junior teams are all playing in the 4th and 5th tier (IIA and IIB) of international hockey. Korea lost 2-8 to Estonia 2 years ago and barely defeated Iceland and Spain last year. That is the future of their national team once the Olympics are over and all the foreigners are no longer interesting for the Korean bureaucrats.
 
Namejs said:
No, you made two points.

Both of them are ridiculous, but only one of them is simply factually incorrect.

As for the first point ("absence of 2nd tier nations wouldn't be a loss"), that point is made purely from your own personal perspective, in which only realistic gold medal contenders are of any worth. In most team sports, that sort of approach to the major international events is unheard of. It's not just about winning gold medals or, say, winning the World Cup in football.

Absence of Latvia is no big loss for Canadian hockey fans, absence of Latvia is a huge loss for Latvian hockey fans, while the absence of Korea wouldn't be a loss to anyone.

As for the 2nd point ("Korea is a good team, and taking part in the OG will help grow hockey there"), nothing what you've said substantiates that claim.


You don't seem to realize that adding Korea reduces the number of spots available to other countries. By default, 9 nations qualify for the Olympic Games through the IIHF world rankings automatically. As of this point, if this was the cut-off point, Latvia would've earned an automatic berth to the Olympic Games.

But you seem to be missing the point. It's not about Latvia, it's about a good team missing the Olympic Games because of Korea. It doesn't matter if it's going to be Denmark, Norway, Belarus, Germany or some other country.

Also, you keep mentioning the term Big 7. What is this Big 7 that you're talking about? If you included Slovakia in there, they are currently tied with Latvia in the world rankings and can just like Latvia they too can realistically miss the Olympics because of Korea.


I mentioned Lithuania. Their national teams and the overall quality of their hockey pyramids are very similar.

Comparing Korea to UK/Ukraine/Hungary/etc. is absolutely ludicrous. Those are two different tiers of hockey. Korean hockey is comparable to the level of hockey played in Lithuania or Estonia.

Saying that they're the mainstays of DivIA is a load of BS. It was the single greatest achievement in Korean hockey to get there for the first time ever. You're just making things up now. :laugh: They might not promote to the 2nd tier ever again.

Their best actual Korean players haven't even been capable of proving themselves at the lowest minor pro level (Central Hockey League/Mestis).


:laugh:

If it wasn't for the foreigners, Korea would drop back to the 4th division, where they belong, as indicated by the fact that their junior teams are all playing in the 4th and 5th tier (IIA and IIB) of international hockey. Korea lost 2-8 to Estonia 2 years ago and barely defeated Iceland and Spain last year. That is the future of their national team once the Olympics are over and all the foreigners are no longer interesting for the Korean bureaucrats.
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Well, it's become painfully obvious you simply don't know what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that Korea actually routinely beats Britain in hockey games now, and that the Korean team actually played better in 2013 without a bunch of foreigners in their lineup, compared to 2014. Your reading comprehension is also terrible, since I never said Korea was a mainstay in Div 1A.

Anyway, I understand why you feel threatened. You're a fan of a fringe country that routinely finishes last at Olympic tournaments. I'd want my country to have every chance to make the next Olympics too.
 
BayStreetBully said:
Well, it's become painfully obvious you simply don't know what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that Korea actually routinely beats Britain in hockey games now, and that the Korean team actually played better in 2013 without a bunch of foreigners in their lineup, compared to 2014. Your reading comprehension is also terrible, since I never said Korea was a mainstay in Div 1A.

Anyway, I understand why you feel threatened. You're a fan of a fringe country that routinely finishes last at Olympic tournaments. I'd want my country to have every chance to make the next Olympics too.
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Latvia did pretty well in the last Olympics. They aren't pushovers. Canada beat them 1-0 (shot differential etc. whatever). I think they're on the uptick and they have as good of a chance to get in as anyone. Unfortunately, Latvia is also the country who might be the most threatened by this development. Last time around they took the top 9 ranked countries as automatic berths - Latvia currently sitting at 9th. If that changes, or they drop to tenth, life becomes more difficult.

That said. I'm fully of the opinion that the hosts get to play, no matter where they're ranked. It's a small token for the cities/countries who spent the money and infrastructural development that their citizens will have to bear the weight of the costs. I wouldn't be surprised if the IOC/Korean government pressured IIHF to let them in.
 
BayStreetBully said:
Well, it's become painfully obvious you simply don't know what you're talking about. Otherwise you'd know that Korea actually routinely beats Britain in hockey games now, and that the Korean team actually played better in 2013 without a bunch of foreigners in their lineup, compared to 2014. Your reading comprehension is also terrible, since I never said Korea was a mainstay in Div 1A.

Anyway, I understand why you feel threatened. You're a fan of a fringe country that routinely finishes last at Olympic tournaments. I'd want my country to have every chance to make the next Olympics too.
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If Korea is not a regular in Div 1A, it means that they're no different than Lithuania or some other smaller hockey nations, which was the point I made.

You haven't provided any evidence as to what separates Korea from the countries I mentioned.

Saying that Korea is at the same tier as Great Britain is like saying that Latvia is at the same tier as the Big 6 countries, because we also routinely beat countries like Finland or Sweden or USA in World Champs.

You could equally make the point that we're in the same tier as Canada, because we barely lost to them in one game, yet the point that you're making is that Latvia is a fringe country. :laugh:

Your entire assessment of the Korean national team is based on a tiny sample size and you don't seem to [MOD] understand the underlying factors that determine a nation's success in international hockey.

[MOD]
 
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Namejs said:
No, they finished 5th out of 6 countries in 2013. Relegated to 3rd tier (teams ranked #23 to #29) in 2014.
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http://wmia2014.iihf.com/en/news/12-jpn-kor/

I dont really know what youre even trying to argue at this point? they were a shootout goal away from being in the top division this year.

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/385/IHM385200_76_16_0.pdf

Looking at 2013, they finished 4th out of 6th. And even if they finished 5th out of 6th, the last 2 arent relegated anymore, its just the last place team..
http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/345/IHM345000_FINAL_RANKING_1_0.pdf
 
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Urbanskog said:
Japan almost qualified for the elite division of the 2015 WHC, what's so hard to understand about that?
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That "almost" is quite a stretch and they only did so because they luckily beat jet-lagged Slovenia in game one despite being outshot 2 to 1. Other than that, Austria's B team crushed them 4-1. That's hardly a nation worthy of qualifying.

IIHFjerseycollector said:
I dont really know what youre even trying to argue at this point? they were a shootout goal away from being in the top division this year.
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Huh? Shootout goal against who? They came two points short of Slovenia and as far as I know, shootout goals usually are worth 1 point, aren't they?

Japan's result last year was a completely fluky thing made mostly out of luck. What the hell are you trying to prove here?
 
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IIHFjerseycollector said:
http://wmia2014.iihf.com/en/news/12-jpn-kor/

I dont really know what youre even trying to argue at this point? they were a shootout goal away from being in the top division this year.

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/385/IHM385200_76_16_0.pdf

Looking at 2013, they finished 4th out of 6th. And even if they finished 5th out of 6th, the last 2 arent relegated anymore, its just the last place team..
http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/345/IHM345000_FINAL_RANKING_1_0.pdf
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Exactly, they got relegated this year.
 
SoundAndFury said:
Huh? Shootout goal against who? They came two points short of Slovenia and as far as I know, shootout goals usually are worth 1 point, aren't they?
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Shootout goal against Hungary. So what if they were 2 points behind Slovenia? They were tied with Austria, one more point and they were up.

Namejs said:
I think you're in the wrong thread.

This thread is about Korea.
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That guy :facepalm:
 
Looks like an easy win for the teams that have to play vs. him. Oh well it'll give their hockey team a moment in the sun.
 
Urbanskog said:
Yet the talk is about Japan here.
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Nope, it isn't.

There was an argument about assigning Korea to a specific tier of international hockey and one poster said they were DivIA regulars, to which I and another poster replied that it simply was not the case.

Another guy made a remark saying "they" almost qualified for the Elite division, without specifying the national team he was talking about. He then continued to post about Japan, not realizing that he's in a thread about Korea.
 
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Personally, I'd prefer them to ice an all Korean team and lose by the extra 5-10 goals than have half their roster come from Canada, but that's just me. Best of luck to them, they're gonna need it.
 
SoundAndFury said:
That "almost" is quite a stretch and they only did so because they luckily beat jet-lagged Slovenia in game one despite being outshot 2 to 1. Other than that, Austria's B team crushed them 4-1. That's hardly a nation worthy of qualifying.



Huh? Shootout goal against who? They came two points short of Slovenia and as far as I know, shootout goals usually are worth 1 point, aren't they?

Japan's result last year was a completely fluky thing made mostly out of luck. What the hell are you trying to prove here?
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Shootout against Hungary. And the top 2 from Div 1A advance to the next level.. if the had won the shootout , they would have had 11 points, and knocked Austria to third place.

Also, im not trying to prove anything. All I said was that I was rooting for them, and then another poster tried to claim they werent close to making it. which was incorrect. Not sure why you try to damn hard to argue every post thats made here..Calm down slappy
 
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