Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal

[ottawa]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

Tbf I did put the full trade in the OP and a tweet too

People here are just stubborn and can't zoom out and look at the bigger picture.

We'd be going into next season with either Dach or Romanov...13th/Nazar was never in the equation.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeah this asinine narrative has to stop.

Yeah, I agree. And the other part is thinking Nazar is a sure shot center to be better than Dach when there has been a clear trend of younger players taking time to develop. What makes Nazar a better prospect than Dach when Dach was rated higher at the same age. I just don't get it. Top 15 picks have lots of value but it's almost like some fans think none of them disappoint and they all develop faster than Dach.

Dach was highly rated in his draft year and D+1. He had a rough season at age 20 last year with the Blackhawks and that untapped potential is still there at age 21.

 

[SOLR]

Young centers are almost always poor on faceoffs and his skating is not awful as he is fairly agile and has decent edgework. His upside is as a huge, playmaking center in the Spezza, Getzlaf, Bobby Smith, Thornton mold. Obviously those are some big names and he is not likely to reach their level although Spezza or Smith might be attainable.

He plays a bit like Spezza - Spezza took forever to arrive.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It has nothing to do with Nazar actually.

The Habs got great value for Romanov. The 13OA with all those talents still available. Then they traded it for a player who was given up on by a rebuilding team - in other words a player on his way of busting.

I’m not saying he is a certain bust but let’s be real: this is a rehabilitation project.

I don’t see the logic in it, personally, but Hughes and Gorton are dead certain of Dachs, as they are dead certain of Slafkovsky, so let’s see how it plays out.

I’m far more cautious and conservative than they seem to be — I would’ve gone a different route. But nothing ventured nothing gained, so let’s see!

There are more players who stall like Dach vs players who shine like stars from age 18-21. Are you telling us that you prefer we traded Romanov for a chance we get a talent like Romanov with the 13 pick cause it gave us a better shot at getting a more impact player while we rebuild/tank next year? Sounds like you're basically crying for a Blackhawks rebuild... trade anybody who helps us move up the standings cause we will get Bedard that way. Very risky business bud

There was nothing wrong with flipping Romanov for Dach cause we had depth at LD and needed center depth. Dach is not a rehabilitation project. He's still in development years and drowned on the Blackhawks last year like Caufield did with Ducharme. The potential has not faded away like you think it did.

Gorton and Hughes don't have your plan and Romanov was not getting traded if there was no 2nd Dach deal. The 13th pick doesn't exist cause there was zero mind set of flipping Romanov for the 13th pick only. If the Dach deal was not available, they don't even bother trying to call around to get a top 15 pick.

 

[Redux91]

He plays a bit like Spezza - Spezza took forever to arrive.

You mean Spezza's 55 points at 20?
Or his 90 points at 22? Lol...
(Age 21 was 05 lockout)

 

[Habs Halifax]

He plays a bit like Spezza - Spezza took forever to arrive.

Isn't Dach on the Lafreniere path of development? Both are not centers yes but both don't have full time roles playing with their teams top talent. Like Stutze and Hughes for example?

I'm very interested to see how MSL manages Dach's development, usage, and optertunity

 

[ReHabs]

There are more players who stall like Dach vs players who shine like stars from age 18-21. Are you telling us that you prefer we traded Romanov for a chance we get a talent like Romanov with the 13 pick cause it gave us a better shot at getting a more impact player while we rebuild/tank next year? Sounds like you're basically crying for a Blackhawks rebuild... trade anybody who helps us move up the standings cause we will get Bedard that way. Very risky business bud

There was nothing wrong with flipping Romanov for Dach cause we had depth at LD and needed center depth. Dach is not a rehabilitation project. He's still in development years and drowned on the Blackhawks last year like Caufield did with Ducharme. The potential has not faded away like you think it did.

Gorton and Hughes don't have your plan and Romanov was not getting traded if there was no 2nd Dach deal. The 13th pick doesn't exist cause there was zero mind set of flipping Romanov for the 13th pick only. If the Dach deal was not available, they don't even bother trying to call around to get a top 15 pick.

Nobody’s crying here. Have you tried turning on your monitor?

In my opinion Dach is not a value purchase. I’d rather have packaged the 13 OA + + for Dubois (for example..) than take a flyer on Kirby Dach and bet he can recover his career trajectory.

150 NHL games is a lot. The player has a lot of warts + injury issues.

I’m all for picking up 21/22/23 year olds actually. I don’t want a Chicago style total rebuild.

So Romanov for the 13OA could then be flipped for a RFA or a high quality prospect. Either way is fine. We don’t have enough good prospects in our system anyway. The only blue chip is Guhle.

 

[KevSkillz4]

I think the best mentor for him is Josh Anderson, Dach is a better playmaker than him, Anderson is more a physical player than Dach, but if Andy help Dach to play with his size... Dach will be a beast.

I certainly see Dach play with a player like Anderson.

 

[SOLR]

Isn't Dach on the Lafreniere path of development? Both are not centers yes but both don't have full time roles playing with their teams top talent. Like Stutze and Hughes for example?

I'm very interested to see how MSL manages Dach's development, usage, and optertunity

Ottawa gave up on Spezza 5 times, then one year he arrived in the best shape of his life and became the guy.

That's the thing with big boys, small changes can change results a lot.

Lafreniere is developing really well, he was one of the Rangers best players in the playoffs, in his 2nd year. The only one wondering about him are amateurs. Dach needs to play at his position, that's about it IMO.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Nobody’s crying here. Have you tried turning on your monitor?

In my opinion Dach is not a value purchase. I’d rather have packaged the 13 OA + + for Dubois (for example..) than take a flyer on Kirby Dach and bet he can recover his career trajectory.

150 NHL games is a lot. The player has a lot of warts + injury issues.

I’m all for picking up 21/22/23 year olds actually. I don’t want a Chicago style total rebuild.

So Romanov for the 13OA could then be flipped for a RFA or a high quality prospect. Either way is fine. We don’t have enough good prospects in our system anyway. The only blue chip is Guhle.

Not me. I don't agree with your assessment on Dach.

 

[ReHabs]

Not me. I don't agree with your assessment on Dach.

Don’t take my word for it, plenty of analysis on Dach criticizes his skating, his balance his physicality, etc.

 

[417]

It has nothing to do with Nazar actually.

The Habs got great value for Romanov. The 13OA with all those talents still available. Then they traded it for a player who was given up on by a rebuilding team - in other words a player on his way of busting.

I’m not saying he is a certain bust but let’s be real: this is a rehabilitation project.

I don’t see the logic in it, personally, but Hughes and Gorton are dead certain of Dachs, as they are dead certain of Slafkovsky, so let’s see how it plays out.

I’m far more cautious and conservative than they seem to be — I would’ve gone a different route. But nothing ventured nothing gained, so let’s see!

false narrative...this simply isn't true.

 

[KevSkillz4]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

Agree and people need to calm down with Frank Nazar, yeah he is very good, high potential, one of my favorite prospect in draft 2022.

But Dach is a different player, 6"4 C, people talk about the talent of Nazar but Dach too have big talent, high potential, 3th overall pick on a better draft (2019), rankings in top 5 by rankings. 10 points in 18 games in 2020-2021 season, his injury don't help his development.

Dach need to play with his size and have better goalscoring instinct, Josh Anderson can easily help him to play with his size.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ottawa gave up on Spezza 5 times, then one year he arrived in the best shape of his life and became the guy.

That's the thing with big boys, small changes can change results a lot.

Lafreniere is developing really well, he was one of the Rangers best players in the playoffs, in his 2nd year. The only one wondering about him are amateurs. Dach needs to play at his position, that's about it IMO.

Imagine if we traded for Dach last offseason. Some of the amateurs would have pumped up the move and then with a possible meh season at age 20/21, they quickly turn and call him a bust.

Typical season/season and month/month of dwelling on a players growth. Remember Caufield in the playoffs, then in the regular season with Ducharme, then with MSL? A lot of fans fall for small sample sizes within the rollercoaster ride

 

[ReHabs]

false narrative...this simply isn't true.

My bad, he is elite and on the verge of dominating the NHL just like Galchenyuck and Kotkaniemi were in their fourth years

Imagine if we traded for Dach last offseason. Some of the amateurs would have pumped up the move and then with a possible meh season at age 20/21, they quickly turn and call him a bust.

Typical season/season and month/month of dwelling on a players growth. Remember Caufield in the playoffs, then in the regular season with Ducharme, then with MSL? A lot of fans fall for small sample sizes within the rollercoaster ride

Ah yes but… in his pivotal third season he put up bad numbers! That’s a whole season’s worth of track added to his trajectory.

 

[417]

My bad, he is elite and on the verge of dominating the NHL just like Galchenyuck and Kotkaniemi were in their fourth years

You can use all the hyperbole in the world if you want too...i'm not into histrionics.

Again, he was not given away...and this has nothing to do with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi either. Not sure why you're bringing them up.

Fans like you kill me because you're the first to talk about tanking and development this and that.

But at the same time, you expect all players to be finished products as soon as they hit the ice.

You want the perfect future but don't want to deal with all of the ups and downs that it involves.

 

[dinodebino]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

You’re fighting a lost cause, my friend. I tried and have given up.

 

[Andrei79]

Nobody’s crying here. Have you tried turning on your monitor?

In my opinion Dach is not a value purchase. I’d rather have packaged the 13 OA + + for Dubois (for example..) than take a flyer on Kirby Dach and bet he can recover his career trajectory.

150 NHL games is a lot. The player has a lot of warts + injury issues.

I’m all for picking up 21/22/23 year olds actually. I don’t want a Chicago style total rebuild.

So Romanov for the 13OA could then be flipped for a RFA or a high quality prospect. Either way is fine. We don’t have enough good prospects in our system anyway. The only blue chip is Guhle.

That's exactly what management considered they did when they acquired Dach. I'll also add that packaging the 13OA for Dubois was a pipe dream, else it would've happened.

 

[Habs Halifax]

My bad, he is elite and on the verge of dominating the NHL just like Galchenyuck and Kotkaniemi were in their fourth years


Ah yes but… in his pivotal third season he put up bad numbers! That’s a whole season’s worth of track added to his trajectory.

Numbers are not the sole evaluation on development. I don't agree with your assessment towards Dach. Dach is on a similar development road as Lafreniere. Both players are playing 2nd or 3rd lines and not a full time role with the teams best talent.

Lets see what MSL can do with Dach before we act like experts on his development.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Don’t take my word for it, plenty of analysis on Dach criticizes his skating, his balance his physicality, etc.

It's development and maturity years. I'm away of the pros and cons on Dach up to this point.

 

[ReHabs]

You can use all the hyperbole in the world if you want too...i'm not into histrionics.

Again, he was not given away...and this has nothing to do with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi either. Not sure why you're bringing them up.

Fans like you kill me because you're the first to talk about tanking and development this and that.

But at the same time, you expect all players to be finished products as soon as they hit the ice.

You want the perfect future but don't want to deal with all of the ups and downs that it involves.

The Habs didn’t need to take another team’s off-beat, off-track player — that is the summation of my point.

We can work with our own draftees but what’s the point of assuming the risk of another team’s problem?

Obviously I want Dach to thrive and will root for him but it was a gamble, surely you can admit that.

 

[DAChampion]

Chicago is asset stripping itself in the most aggressive tank that I've seen.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Way too much 3rd overall pick PTSD on this board lol

 

[417]

The Habs didn’t need to take another team’s off-beat, off-track player — that is the summation of my point.

We can work with our own draftees but what’s the point of assuming the risk of another team’s problem?

Obviously I want Dach to thrive and will root for him but it was a gamble, surely you can admit that.

Of course it's a gamble...just like drafting someone 13th is also a gamble.

You're not getting any more guaranteed return on your investment if you draft someone at 13 either.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Again, he was not given away...and this has nothing to do with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi either. Not sure why you're bringing them up.

I've tried digging into this before, I truly don't get it. We just saw Caufield flip a switch and go from a lost puppy to a 45G/82 game pace in the 2nd half with a coaching/deployment change and more confidence but instead people would rather be doomers about players drafted by the previous front office 5/10 years (I've even seen him bring up Kostitsyin in this same context) ago and 2+ coaches ago. For the life of me I'll never understand why I should be more scared of what happened with Kotkaniemi/Galchenyuk than I should be encouraged by what just happened with Suzuki and Caufield, it defies logic.

It's just being a complete doomer and trying to spin that as "cautious". The only thing in common with the current front office/coaching staff/development teams and the ones that handled Kotkaniemi or Galchenyuk is they have the same logo on their polo shirts and tracksuits.

The same development staff who failed to fix our own draftees are still here.

No they aren't. The Habs have split the GM role between two people, replaced the head scout, multiple AGMs, the NHL head coach, and virtually all assistants at the NHL/AHL levels save for Alex Burrows since Kotkaniemi's time with the Habs, and Kotkaniemi only played 13 games for the current AHL coach. They've hired a skills coach and started an analytics department replacing nobody because we had neither, they've hired numerous other people as analysts, consultants/advisors, and in other development-oriented roles, and the style the Habs played under St. Louis represents a blatantly obvious philosophical shift from the last 20 years of conservative defence-first coaching.

If you want to reserve judgment until they show a good track record then go ahead, but the idea it's the same development staff is simply untrue and it is absurd to act like others are being pollyannas for having Caufield/Suzuki's improvement with St. Louis 6 months ago more present in their minds than Galchenyuk's failures under Michel Therrien 10 years ago.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic

Yes you do.