Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal

[montreal]

Well maybe "same" wasn't the optimal word as Dach was drafted 10 spots earlier...but saying we have 3 years of Dach in the NHL also isn't quite accurate.

He's played 152 NHL games, so not even the equivalent of 2 full NHL seasons. His rookie campaign was pretty good all things considered, then his sophomore season got interrupted right when he started looking like he was putting things together.

Last year was difficult, though it was difficult for everyone in Chicago.

So it's not like he's some broken player the Habs have decided to trade for in order to salvage.

Both players are mystery boxes but I feel like we have a bit more data to go off of with Dach than we would with Nazar.

Framing things like Nazar is so much more valuable (not saying you said that btw), simply because we haven't had the chance yet to criticize and analyze his game in a pro setting like we have with Dach yet, is misleading IMO.

Again, I know very little about Nazar, from what I've seen and read, he looks like a very good prospect...but its not like he's Connor McDavid here. As he continues to develop, he'll also have question marks which will lead people to question his ultimate NHL probability and upside as well.

He's played in 3 NHL seasons was my point, injuries of course are a part of the game and in this case could be a huge reason why they were able to get him if he can get back on track of course.

I would say it's like he's some broken player that the Habs have to salvage. I don't know his game very well at all, the last time I would have seen him was in the WHL and I don't know if I did. But have heard the skating, speed, shot, and face-offs all need work so that does sound at least to some degree like a broken player that needs to be salvaged depending on your definition of broken player.

 

[Wats]

What if Frank Nazar never plays in the NHL period?

Not saying that's going to happen, but why can we assume one thing for Dach but it's all roses and lollipops for Nazar?

Why just Nazar, we don't know who Habs would have picked. For all we know they would have taken Lekkerimaki or Kemmel or Ostlund or McGroarty etc

 

[417]

As a rebuilding team that hopefully between the '22, '23 drafts is able to get the pieces to actually be able to perhaps build around to be a contending team again, the more shots you can take in the top 13 the better. So having Slaf and Nazar would have been huge despite of course not knowing how it will pan out, fans are always going to leave draft day dreaming that they got future NHL players. Of course as we all know it ends on with only a small fraction of the 200+ players that get drafted that weekend go on to be NHLers.

Well that's kind of my point.

Dach has already checked off the first and up to that point, most important marker for a prospect.

That's turning into an every day NHLer.

Nazar is still a ways from that and no one today can guarantee that that will ever happen.

As a rebuilding team, it's also important to load up on young NHL players that can grow with your vision. I think Dach, at least for now, fits within that vision, just as much as having drafted Frank Nazar would.

Had the Habs drafted Frank Nazar, we'd be sitting here 1-2 years from now, whenever he's eventually ready to take the next step...and we'd have a lot of the same concerns we have with Dach, for Nazar.

With Dach now it's we have to hope we can fix the player so that he can be a top 6 forward. Granted the odds are much better that with a Dach, a player that's been in the NHL the last 3 years, you likely have a guy that's going to continue to play in the NHL, unlike Nazar who would be say most likely a couple years away from seeing if he can play in the NHL or not.

Yeah I basically said the same in my post above - so agreed there.

It's easy to see the difference, with a 17/18 you are hoping, with a 20/21 year old you are now trying to fix issues or else the team that had him wouldn't have traded him. MB let KK go, only time will tell if he made the right call, just as the Hawks let Dach go, either it was a very shrewd move on their part or they grossly miscalculated his value.

But this frames it almost like the Hawks used him as a throw-in in a trade like the Habs just did with Poehling. That's not the case.

The Hawks specifically said they weren't trading him unless a top 15 pick was coming back.

So again, this idea that he needs to be "fixed" is misleading.

 

[417]

He's played in 3 NHL seasons was my point, injuries of course are a part of the game and in this case could be a huge reason why they were able to get him if he can get back on track of course.

I would say it's like he's some broken player that the Habs have to salvage. I don't know his game very well at all, the last time I would have seen him was in the WHL and I don't know if I did. But have heard the skating, speed, shot, and face-offs all need work so that does sound at least to some degree like a broken player that needs to be salvaged depending on your definition of broken player.

I don't know many 21 year old players who don't have things to work on.

Nick Suzuki is our best player and he needs to work on his skating, speed and faceoffs too.

Why just Nazar, we don't know who Habs would have picked. For all we know they would have taken Lekkerimaki or Kemmel or Ostlund or McGroarty etc

I was responding to the notion that the Habs would have picked Nazar 13th overall...my reply remains the same even if you swap out Nazar for Lekkerimaki or Kemmel or Ostlund or McGroarty, as well.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I think many underrate this, getting bad advice from the parents for these 18, 19, 20 year olds can be a huge problem. It's a big reason why I wanted no part of Lambert at the draft, just would rather not have to deal with that. I had heard the same thing about Tinordi and his dad but don't know how true it was.

I know a fair bit about the Lambert situation and have kept quiet but there are some serious flags.

 

[montreal]

Well that's kind of my point.

Dach has already checked off the first and up to that point, most important marker for a prospect.

That's turning into an every day NHLer.

Nazar is still a ways from that and no one today can guarantee that that will ever happen.

As a rebuilding team, it's also important to load up on young NHL players that can grow with your vision. I think Dach, at least for now, fits within that vision, just as much as having drafted Frank Nazar would.


But this frames it almost like the Hawks used him as a throw-in in a trade like the Habs just did with Poehling. That's not the case.

The Hawks specifically said they weren't trading him unless a top 15 pick was coming back.

So again, this idea that he needs to be "fixed" is misleading.

I agree you need young NHL players to join the likes of Caufield and Suzuki, so I understand the trade but would rather have the hope of Nazar vs the can they get Dach back on track. If Dach turns into a solid top 6 forward that's a major win, if he is 3rd or 4th line winger and Nazar ends up being a very good NHLer that's going to sting a lot.

I don't think this frames it as him being a throw in, since you can't have a throw in when it's a one player trade for picks. The Hawks clearly gave up on a 21 year old center that's a bid body that was a top 3 pick. So either they are stupid or made a smart move.

I do think he needs to be fixed, usually one of the biggest problems in these types of situations where you have a high end draft pick that has struggled to find his way in the NHL either by injuries or lack of production or whatever, confidence takes the biggest hit and is one of the most important things to "fix". You have got to get their confidence going and that is a fix imo. But if the skating, speed, shot need a good bit of improvement that's a fix to me as well.

I don't know many 21 year old players who don't have things to work on.

Nick Suzuki is our best player and he needs to work on his skating, speed and faceoffs too.

Big difference though, Suzuki is already a top player in the NHL, Dach is a big question mark.

 

[HuGort]

I really like the swing for the fences with this trade but Dach is not a great skater. He is not awkward and bambiesque like KK but his straight ahead speed and acceleration are below average. Dach moves well laterally and has better edges than either KK or Galchenyuk had/have (people seem to insist on these comparisons). You can see room for improvement as I think the biggest key for him is gaining strength.

I watched all of his games in the playoff bubble at the end of his D+1 and thought that he looked like a future elite 1C. He was controlling and dictating play and looked alot like a young Getzlaf/Spezza hybrid. If MSL can get him back to that level and build him up from there we will have easily won this gambit by Hughes.

I was using Bob McKenzie scouting report on Dach while watching his draft year. I never seen Dach play myself. He said he was a great skater

 

[417]

I agree you need young NHL players to join the likes of Caufield and Suzuki, so I understand the trade but would rather have the hope of Nazar vs the can they get Dach back on track. If Dach turns into a solid top 6 forward that's a major win, if he is 3rd or 4th line winger and Nazar ends up being a very good NHLer that's going to sting a lot.

I don't think this frames it as him being a throw in, since you can't have a throw in when it's a one player trade for picks. The Hawks clearly gave up on a 21 year old center that's a bid body that was a top 3 pick. So either they are stupid or made a smart move.

I do think he needs to be fixed, usually one of the biggest problems in these types of situations where you have a high end draft pick that has struggled to find his way in the NHL either by injuries or lack of production or whatever, confidence takes the biggest hit and is one of the most important things to "fix". You have got to get their confidence going and that is a fix imo. But if the skating, speed, shot need a good bit of improvement that's a fix to me as well.



Big difference though, Suzuki is already a top player in the NHL, Dach is a big question mark.

I don't think the Hawks gave up on Dach...they weren't trading him unless a top 15 pick was coming back. So clearly, they valued him.

Did the Habs "give up" Alexander Romanov because they moved him for a 13th overall pick? I don't think so, they did like any smart organization would do.

Every player has a value ....and the Hawks have a new GM and it's not uncommon for new GMs to want to implement their own vision.

It seems like Kyle Davidson has taken the clean house approach...if a team meets the value of a player on his team, he's not holding onto them for sentimentality, he'll move them.

I do rate that on some level.

But my point here is that the circumstances surrounding Kirby Dach being traded a bit more complex than them deciding to give up on him.

 

[montreal]

I don't think the Hawks gave up on Dach...they weren't trading him unless a top 15 pick was coming back. So clearly, they valued him.

Did the Habs "give up" Alexander Romanov because they moved him for a 13th overall pick? I don't think so, they did like any smart organization would do.

Every player has a value ....and the Hawks have a new GM and it's not uncommon for new GMs to want to implement their own vision.

It seems like Kyle Davidson has taken the clean house approach...if a team meets the value of a player on his team, he's not holding onto them for sentimentality, he'll move them.

I do rate that on some level.

But my point here is that the circumstances surrounding Kirby Dach being traded a bit more complex than them deciding to give up on him.

yes, you trade a 3rd OA pick after his age 20 season, you gave up on him.

The Habs did give up on Romanov, but it's a bit different as he was a 2nd rounder and at some point had to move some young blueliners out most likely assuming all didn't bust.

 

[417]

yes, you trade a 3rd OA pick after his age 20 season, you gave up on him.

The Habs did give up on Romanov, but it's a bit different as he was a 2nd rounder and at some point had to move some young blueliners out most likely assuming all didn't bust.

Agree to disagree here.

Like I said above, IMO, every player has a value...i'd trade anyone on this team if a team met the value I wanted. Players are after all, assets. Whether you pick them 3rd overall or 199th overall.

Not sure that means I'd be giving up on a player...but perhaps were debating semantics here.

All in all, I think we're on the same wave length.

Dach's a worthy "gamble" to take (prefer using that than calling him a "reclamation project" or suggesting Hawks "gave up on him"). I'm less concerned with the motivations behind why the Hawks moved him and more concerned with why the Habs targeted him and how they're going to help him reach the potential that saw him drafted so high.

There's a lot to work with there IMO and i'm a big fan of "toolsy" players. So I was a big fan of this trade.

Hoping it works out.

 

[Deebs]

yes, you trade a 3rd OA pick after his age 20 season, you gave up on him.

The Habs did give up on Romanov, but it's a bit different as he was a 2nd rounder and at some point had to move some young blueliners out most likely assuming all didn't bust.

They did the same with a 24 year old, two time 40 goal guy who wanted to sign long term there as well. It's a big bowl of fruit loops over there

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I was using Bob McKenzie scouting report on Dach while watching his draft year. I never seen Dach play myself. He said he was a great skater

Bob is wrong....Just check Dach out on YouTube, it is abundantly obvious.

McKenzie is a journalist with great contacts, he is just your average fan with regards to his ability to evaluate hockey players. Unfortunately the average fan is consistently unable to determine the difference between good skaters and poor skaters. He generally stays in his lane which I appreciate so I won't be too hard on him here.

Hopefully with added lower body and core strength Dach can improve in this area as his technique isn't awful like KK or Galchenyuk.

 

[Runner77]

It isn't the same development team as before.

Adam Nicholas is there now and wasn't before.

Chris Boucher and the analytics department is there now and wasn't before. And their role is to help accumulate data that could help MSL and Adam Nicholas with knowing what a player will need to work on.

Wasn’t Nicholas supposed to hire more staff for the development dept.? Only holdovers from prior regime I can think of are Ramage and Bouillon. Maybe there are others.

 

[Wats]

This is the trade that can basically define HuGo's tenure. If they develop him into even a 50-60 point guy, they prove their new development program is working and is going to help Montreal be way more successful with their prospects.

If in the off chance he breaks out to a 60+ or even 70+ point guy, HuGo will forever be given ton of rope.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Wasn’t Nicholas supposed to hire more staff for the development dept.? Only holdovers from prior regime I can think of are Ramage and Bouillon. Maybe there are others.

No, there haven't been any new hires by Nicholas. He's in Hockey Development.

Ramage and Bouillon are in Player Development. What the difference is? Honestly it beats me.

But the way I understand it is Ramage and Bouillon are more like staying in touch with the prospects and their coaches and see how things are developing. Maybe share what they think they do right and what things to work on.

Whereas Nicholas is more the skills guy who will get on the ice with them and do drills.

They hired Poulin as a consultant. So there has been that in addition to that department.

 

[HuGort]

Bob is wrong....Just check Dach out on YouTube, it is abundantly obvious.

McKenzie is a journalist with great contacts, he is just your average fan with regards to his ability to evaluate hockey players. Unfortunately the average fan is consistently unable to determine the difference between good skaters and poor skaters. He generally stays in his lane which I appreciate so I won't be too hard on him here.

Hopefully with added lower body and core strength Dach can improve in this area as his technique isn't awful like KK or Galchenyuk.

If he's not a good skater, not a goal scorer and definitely not good on faceoffs, odds of him becoming a good player for us is not in our favour. Sounds like Dach has long ways to go

 

[ottawa]

This is the trade that can basically define HuGo's tenure. If they develop him into even a 50-60 point guy, they prove their new development program is working and is going to help Montreal be way more successful with their prospects.

If in the off chance he breaks out to a 60+ or even 70+ point guy, HuGo will forever be given ton of rope.

You want a good development program for your rookies, that was our issue. Our prospects would either be rushed, not make it to the NHL or would not last in the NHL. I think HuGo's development program will be judged based on the kids that they drafted this year or the kids they got their hands on from the last couple of drafts.

Dach went through the Chicago development program...this is really going to come down to just St Louis and how he handles him and he can help him find another gear.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Looking forward to see MSL have an impact on him...

View attachment 571267

 

[WeThreeKings]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

 

[Guy Larose]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

Nothing tells us that they would of picked Nazar anyays.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

If he's not a good skater, not a goal scorer and definitely not good on faceoffs, odds of him becoming a good player for us is not in our favour. Sounds like Dach has long ways to go

Young centers are almost always poor on faceoffs and his skating is not awful as he is fairly agile and has decent edgework. His upside is as a huge, playmaking center in the Spezza, Getzlaf, Bobby Smith, Thornton mold. Obviously those are some big names and he is not likely to reach their level although Spezza or Smith might be attainable.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Nothing tells us that they would of picked Nazar anyays.

They made the trade at like 4th overall. No one knew who or what was available. Chicago wanted a pick in the top 15 for Dach. Habs went and got one.

If Dach isn't available in trade. Habs never move Romanov. They never acquire the pick. It's very simple so yelling into the void about Nazar is just fruitless since it was never ever a possibility for the Habs.

 

[Guy Larose]

They made the trade at like 4th overall. No one knew who or what was available. Chicago wanted a pick in the top 15 for Dach. Habs went and got one.

If Dach isn't available in trade. Habs never move Romanov. They never acquire the pick. It's very simple so yelling into the void about Nazar is just fruitless since it was never ever a possibility for the Habs.

Not yelling at anything, just saying we don't even know who their pick would of been, so the people comparing with Nazar...

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

The Nazar debate is completely pointless.

The Habs did not trade Romanov for the 13th overall pick. They traded Romanov for Dach.

If Dach was not being traded, the Habs do not trade Romanov.

This post should literally be stickied at this point.

Yeah this asinine narrative has to stop.

 

[ReHabs]

They made the trade at like 4th overall. No one knew who or what was available. Chicago wanted a pick in the top 15 for Dach. Habs went and got one.

If Dach isn't available in trade. Habs never move Romanov. They never acquire the pick. It's very simple so yelling into the void about Nazar is just fruitless since it was never ever a possibility for the Habs.

It has nothing to do with Nazar actually.

The Habs got great value for Romanov. The 13OA with all those talents still available. Then they traded it for a player who was given up on by a rebuilding team - in other words a player on his way of busting.

I’m not saying he is a certain bust but let’s be real: this is a rehabilitation project.

I don’t see the logic in it, personally, but Hughes and Gorton are dead certain of Dachs, as they are dead certain of Slafkovsky, so let’s see how it plays out.

I’m far more cautious and conservative than they seem to be — I would’ve gone a different route. But nothing ventured nothing gained, so let’s see!