Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal

[McGees]

Looking forward to see MSL have an impact on him...

 

[KevSkillz4]

Looking forward to see MSL have an impact on him...

View attachment 571267

I certainly see a another player in Dach with MTL and MSL than with Chicago. He have the same age than Caufield, Caufield with Ducharme looks even worse than Dach in CHI so far, Caufield with MSL looks like a star. MSL can really make a new player with Dach.

 

[ReHabs]

It’s not just his injury but his playstyle, physicality, and even skating stride have been criticized.

If he succeeds it would be very cool but seems like a lot had to go right.

 

[smcgreg]

It’s not just his injury but his playstyle, physicality, and even skating stride have been criticized.

If he succeeds it would be very cool but seems like a lot had to go right.

Or another way to look at it may be, he's already an NHLer with a lot of things that can be fixed. So, if a few things are fixed, he will be better and if a bunch of things are fixed, there is a very high ceiling.

 

[ReHabs]

Or another way to look at it may be, he's already an NHLer with a lot of things that can be fixed. So, if a few things are fixed, he will be better and if a bunch of things are fixed, there is a very high ceiling.

Sure but Galchenyuk was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed anything. Kotkaniemi was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed his skating stride or his balance.

The same development staff who failed to fix our own draftees are still here.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic — simply saying it’s intriguing and interesting the uphill battle that Dach will have to solve. I don’t know anything about his “character” but does he have that in him? Fixing your skating stride is not impossible but from what I understand it sure has hell isn’t straightforward. Brayden Point did it, many others didn’t.

What about physical balance and using your body? Can you teach someone to use their body if they’ve played for 10+ years another way?

 

[SOLR]

It’s not just his injury but his playstyle, physicality, and even skating stride have been criticized.

If he succeeds it would be very cool but seems like a lot had to go right.

He's not a winger, he was used on the wing a lot by Chicago (as its done often for rookies). Physicality matters more, closer to the boards...

 

[The Great Weal]

I don't know....reclamation project is a bit of a misnomer.

It's not like the Hawks gave him away or that he's 27yrs old going on his 4th team.

It's easy to forget but he was in the same draft class as Caufield.

Imagine the Habs keep Ducharme, what are we labeling Caufield then?

While I don't disagree with your point, Caufield looked lights out just last playoffs so his "slump" was not as concerning as Dach's who looked great in the bubble then suffered a bad wrist injury.

 

[HuGort]

A 6'4"great skating, playmaking center. Hughes sees Dach fitting in nicely behind Suzuki as #2 NHL center

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Podcast with Dach is already up?

No, I was just checking out the previous Podcast and he unfortunately is very unknowledgeable about the game and irtwas just painful to listen to. It is surprising at times having spoke to many NHLers when you run into some who either know very little about the game from any perspective other than their own personal viewpoint and their specific role on the ice.

He sounds like a nice guy and I wish him the best but when you immediately refer to Ducharme as "Desharnais" and pronounce Poehling as "Pole - ing" it provides immediate insight into a lack of preparation and the fact that you really aren't up on current events and are definitely not a source of relevant analysis. These weren't the only miscues but definitely alerted me that he was in no way going to enlighten me on any Habs related topic.

Guys like this are fun when they share personal stories from their experience but listening to them talk about current affairs is painful.

I will check out the Dach podcast though.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

A 6'4"great skating, playmaking center. Hughes sees Dach fitting in nicely behind Suzuki as #2 NHL center

I really like the swing for the fences with this trade but Dach is not a great skater. He is not awkward and bambiesque like KK but his straight ahead speed and acceleration are below average. Dach moves well laterally and has better edges than either KK or Galchenyuk had/have (people seem to insist on these comparisons). You can see room for improvement as I think the biggest key for him is gaining strength.

I watched all of his games in the playoff bubble at the end of his D+1 and thought that he looked like a future elite 1C. He was controlling and dictating play and looked alot like a young Getzlaf/Spezza hybrid. If MSL can get him back to that level and build him up from there we will have easily won this gambit by Hughes.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Sure but Galchenyuk was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed anything. Kotkaniemi was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed his skating stride or his balance.

The same development staff who failed to fix our own draftees are still here.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic — simply saying it’s intriguing and interesting the uphill battle that Dach will have to solve. I don’t know anything about his “character” but does he have that in him? Fixing your skating stride is not impossible but from what I understand it sure has hell isn’t straightforward. Brayden Point did it, many others didn’t.

What about physical balance and using your body? Can you teach someone to use their body if they’ve played for 10+ years another way?

It isn't the same development team as before.

Adam Nicholas is there now and wasn't before.

Chris Boucher and the analytics department is there now and wasn't before. And their role is to help accumulate data that could help MSL and Adam Nicholas with knowing what a player will need to work on.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

It isn't the same development team as before.

Adam Nicholas is there now and wasn't before.

Chris Boucher and the analytics department is there now and wasn't before. And their role is to help accumulate data that could help MSL and Adam Nicholas with knowing what a player will need to work on.

Very true,

Let's not forget that Galchenyuk and KK have meddling fathers who were undermining the Habs coaching staff. Both became entitled as Galchenyuk was more interested in partying than training and KK became resistant to advice.

But I agree, MSL is creating a culture that will promote creativity and will not be overtly punitive when kids make mistakes. Kids will earn a chance to be in the lineup if they are committed to working hard to improve themselves. MSL, Nicholas and the team will provide the tools and foresight to help them reach their ceilings faster than they otherwise would have.

 

[Expos94]

The 13th overall and Romanov are the same thing, they don’t add up.

So it’s basically giving Romanov to get Dach.

I was shocked at first but have warmed up because if it works, it’s a home run.

It could fail though, there is more risk and more reward possible with Dach. Since Romanov was at a position with depth, I find it acceptable.

We will see if Hughes and his team did their homework.

Plus we have an abundance of left handed D in our prospects pool. Love Romanov but this could be a great gamble

 

[montreal]

Very true,

Let's not forget that Galchenyuk and KK have meddling fathers who were undermining the Habs coaching staff

I think many underrate this, getting bad advice from the parents for these 18, 19, 20 year olds can be a huge problem. It's a big reason why I wanted no part of Lambert at the draft, just would rather not have to deal with that. I had heard the same thing about Tinordi and his dad but don't know how true it was.

 

[montreal]

It’s not just his injury but his playstyle, physicality, and even skating stride have been criticized.

If he succeeds it would be very cool but seems like a lot had to go right.

This is what concerns me with paying such a high price for Dach (Nazar or whoever they would have picked had they kept the pick if say the deal fell through). For a rebuilding team I would have rather they kept the pick as this seems like a big gamble but on the other hand if it pans out you get a skilled big body forward (as I know he ended up on the wing in Chi town)

 

[Scriptor]

Sure but Galchenyuk was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed anything. Kotkaniemi was an NHLer right off the bat and never fixed his skating stride or his balance.

The same development staff who failed to fix our own draftees are still here.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic — simply saying it’s intriguing and interesting the uphill battle that Dach will have to solve. I don’t know anything about his “character” but does he have that in him? Fixing your skating stride is not impossible but from what I understand it sure has hell isn’t straightforward. Brayden Point did it, many others didn’t.

What about physical balance and using your body? Can you teach someone to use their body if they’ve played for 10+ years another way?

The development department was massively revamped. It's not the Bergevin-era staff pulling the same routine.

They will identify the things to fix in Dach's game and work on those with the still young man. Being traded is usually an eye-opener and, at least initially, Dach will likely be open to suggestions to improve his game.

Jack Han, whom I'm not usually a big fan of, broke down one facet of Dach's game that needs to improve -- his zone entry where he tries to go around Ds that pressure him, instead of, like Slafkovsky already knows how to do (and does extremely well), leaning into the in coming body to dominate the play. Han also said that he was confident the Habs' skills guy is already well aware of this and that it is something that can be taught relatively easily.

Becoming more dominant in zone entries will open up many more options for Dach whims primarily a playmaking C to begin with.

 

[417]

This is what concerns me with paying such a high price for Dach (Nazar or whoever they would have picked had they kept the pick if say the deal fell through). For a rebuilding team I would have rather they kept the pick as this seems like a big gamble but on the other hand if it pans out you get a skilled big body forward (as I know he ended up on the wing in Chi town)

Is it any more or any less of a gamble then drafting Nazar and hoping he pans out?

It's really the same situation, except we chose to trade for a player whose a bit further along in his development.

 

[ReHabs]

The development department was massively revamped. It's not the Bergevin-era staff pulling the same routine.

They will identify the things to fix in Dach's game and work on those with the still young man. Being traded is usually an eye-opener and, at least initially, Dach will likely be open to suggestions to improve his game.

Jack Han, whom I'm not usually a big fan of, broke down one facet of Dach's game that needs to improve -- his zone entry where he tries to go around Ds that pressure him, instead of, like Slafkovsky already knows how to do (and does extremely well), leaning into the in coming body to dominate the play. Han also said that he was confident the Habs' skills guy is already well aware of this and that it is something that can be taught relatively easily.

Becoming more dominant in zone entries will open up many more options for Dach whims primarily a playmaking C to begin with.

We need evidence and proof of success before we can praise any "changes". I'm sick of this pattern. Did we not learn anything from the Bergevin era? He was praised and given credit even while the made mistake after mistake -- It's a new regime! He's bringing his own guys! Galchenyuk needs another year!

Nope.

Until they earn my trust, I'm going to be rightfully cautious if not pessimistic. The Habs organization has found a way to break my heart and insult my intelligence consistently and constantly since I was old enough to be a fan. Let's see them succeed with ONE player before we praise their development regime. We haven't had a single PPG player since Alexei Kovalev in 2008 (and that was just one season). We haven't had a single 90 point player since the 90s. We haven't had a single 40 goal scorer since... Damphousse in 1994.

This organization needs to show some success before we can just shrug and trust them to succeed... especially in player development, especially with reclamation projects, especially with players who haven't shown success in the NHL. He's the same age as Caufield but already given away by Chicago.

I respect those who disagree with me but I won't be deterred. Let's see if they flunk with Dach too, I think they will -- it is too steep, too hard, too complicated to fix that player's game imo.

Is it any more or any less of a gamble then drafting Nazar and hoping he pans out?

It's really the same situation, except we chose to trade for a player whose a bit further along in his development.

Is he further along his development? Yes he plays in the NHL but in a few years he could be out of the NHL too if he doesn't get it together, or if his injured wrist gets worse somehow.

What if he's at his ceiling already, and cannot learn to fix his skating or fix his balance or fix his physicality?

 

[417]

Is he further along his development? Yes he plays in the NHL but in a few years he could be out of the NHL too if he doesn't get it together, or if his injured wrist gets worse somehow.

What if he's at his ceiling already, and cannot learn to fix his skating or fix his balance or fix his physicality?

What if Frank Nazar never plays in the NHL period?

Not saying that's going to happen, but why can we assume one thing for Dach but it's all roses and lollipops for Nazar?

 

[ReHabs]

What if Frank Nazar never plays in the NHL period?

Not saying that's going to happen, but why can we assume one thing for Dach but it's all roses and lollipops for Nazar?

It's absolutely possible that Nazar doesn't make it, especially given how bad the Habs have been at developing forwards. But we have a track record for Dach and it is not rosy, he needs to turn it around.

 

[sandviper]

We need evidence and proof of success before we can praise any "changes". I'm sick of this pattern. Did we not learn anything from the Bergevin era? He was praised and given credit even while the made mistake after mistake -- It's a new regime! He's bringing his own guys! Galchenyuk needs another year!

Nope.

Until they earn my trust, I'm going to be rightfully cautious if not pessimistic. The Habs organization has found a way to break my heart and insult my intelligence consistently and constantly since I was old enough to be a fan. Let's see them succeed with ONE player before we praise their development regime. We haven't had a single PPG player since Alexei Kovalev in 2008 (and that was just one season). We haven't had a single 90 point player since the 90s. We haven't had a single 40 goal scorer since... Damphousse in 1994.

This organization needs to show some success before we can just shrug and trust them to succeed... especially in player development, especially with reclamation projects, especially with players who haven't shown success in the NHL. He's the same age as Caufield but already given away by Chicago.

While I do agree we need to see what the new development and analytics adds do for us, it's still a step in the right direction.

These were basically non-existent during the Bergevin era. Furthermore, Bergy and likely others within his inner circle and coaches were of the mindset that it's all on the players. I mean, this isn't completely untrue; players do need to own their issues and deficiencies and do their part to develop but at the same time, it's up to the organization to provide the tools to do so.

Say whatever we want about Chucky and KK, but as 3rd picks in their respective years, the team should had done more to develop these kids simply on the basis that they paid a heavy price (by sucking) to draft them. Sure, maybe they weren't ever going to work out but it's no secret that MT, CJ and especially DD weren't exactly player friendly and known for great development.

I don't know if the new teams on and off the ice will be that tipping point, but I do like our chances of making more NHL players more now than before. For Dach, this could potentially be the perfect environment for him to start taking those next steps. His skating is still a concern, and I don't think it'll ever become a strong part of his game, but if he can break down some of those mental blocks and learn to play with the tools he does have, we may have a player here.

 

[montreal]

Is it any more or any less of a gamble then drafting Nazar and hoping he pans out?

It's really the same situation, except we chose to trade for a player whose a bit further along in his development.

It's not the same situation at all, you have 3 years of Dach in the NHL to go off of. That's huge imo. I bet if you asked any NHL scout or any scout for that matter would their job be much easier if they drafted kids at 20/21 vs 17/18, I bet most would say yes. The physical maturity alone would be huge to go off.

 

[417]

It's absolutely possible that Nazar doesn't make it, especially given how bad the Habs have been at developing forwards. But we have a track record for Dach and it is not rosy, he needs to turn it around.

So back to my original point...is it any more or any less of a risk hoping Dach can hit his stride with Montreal vs Frank Nazar turning into a top 6 player in 2-3 years?

If anything, there's probably more indicators with Dach that he can reach his potential than with Nazar.

Once you're drafted, what you did to get drafted doesn't matter anymore...it's all about what you do post-draft and because he was recently drafted, we still don't know with Nazar.

As for Dach, not rosy?

Again, this is the same as the earlier comment about him being a "reclamation project".

Do you realize he was drafted in 2019? The same year as Cole Caufield...he's played a grand total of 152 NHL games, not even the equivalent of 2 full NHL seasons AND he started out as an 18 year old.

Can we give these kids a bit more time than 3 years to start labelling them?

We're about to enter an era as Habs fans where there's going to be a lot of young players integrating the lineup over the next few years.

a drafted player whose still striving to establish himself 3 years after being drafted is perfectly normal.

It's still VERY early in Kirby Dach's career.

 

[417]

It's not the same situation at all, you have 3 years of Dach in the NHL to go off of. That's huge imo. I bet if you asked any NHL scout or any scout for that matter would their job be much easier if they drafted kids at 20/21 vs 17/18, I bet most would say yes. The physical maturity alone would be huge to go off.

Well maybe "same" wasn't the optimal word as Dach was drafted 10 spots earlier...but saying we have 3 years of Dach in the NHL also isn't quite accurate.

He's played 152 NHL games, so not even the equivalent of 2 full NHL seasons. His rookie campaign was pretty good all things considered, then his sophomore season got interrupted right when he started looking like he was putting things together.

Last year was difficult, though it was difficult for everyone in Chicago.

So it's not like he's some broken player the Habs have decided to trade for in order to salvage.

Both players are mystery boxes but I feel like we have a bit more data to go off of with Dach than we would with Nazar.

Framing things like Nazar is so much more valuable (not saying you said that btw), simply because we haven't had the chance yet to criticize and analyze his game in a pro setting like we have with Dach yet, is misleading IMO.

Again, I know very little about Nazar, from what I've seen and read, he looks like a very good prospect...but its not like he's Connor McDavid here. As he continues to develop, he'll also have question marks which will lead people to question his ultimate NHL probability and upside as well.

 

[montreal]

What if Frank Nazar never plays in the NHL period?

Not saying that's going to happen, but why can we assume one thing for Dach but it's all roses and lollipops for Nazar?

As a rebuilding team that hopefully between the '22, '23 drafts is able to get the pieces to actually be able to perhaps build around to be a contending team again, the more shots you can take in the top 13 the better. So having Slaf and Nazar would have been huge despite of course not knowing how it will pan out, fans are always going to leave draft day dreaming that they got future NHL players. Of course as we all know it ends on with only a small fraction of the 200+ players that get drafted that weekend go on to be NHLers.

With Dach now it's we have to hope we can fix the player so that he can be a top 6 forward. Granted the odds are much better that with a Dach, a player that's been in the NHL the last 3 years, you likely have a guy that's going to continue to play in the NHL, unlike Nazar who would be say most likely a couple years away from seeing if he can play in the NHL or not.

It's easy to see the difference, with a 17/18 you are hoping, with a 20/21 year old you are now trying to fix issues or else the team that had him wouldn't have traded him. MB let KK go, only time will tell if he made the right call, just as the Hawks let Dach go, either it was a very shrewd move on their part or they grossly miscalculated his value.