Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[417]

He is a perimeter player. I mean everyone will try and dig pucks in the corner, even Drouin does it.

Drouin is awful at it and avoids it at all costs.

Wouldn't say that about Dach.

Being a perimeter player means that you defer to the outside rather than inside, it means that instead of cutting inside, you loop back up to keep possession. It means that youre content with stretch passes and cross box plays rather than challenging the box, it means that you take shots from the outside rather than cutting in for a better shot. Dont tell me you dont picture Dach when I describe it like that.

Yes, I do, but plenty of players have been and are successful playing this way.

Not everyone needs to play “inside” like Gallagher either.

Suzuki was a perimeter player in his first year. Hed very rarely challenge a defender, hed rarely move his skates to make a D bite from the inside, hed almost never shoot from inside. Hes literally leveled up the moment he got more confident and when he started pushing the pace.

Thats what Dach isnt doing and thats what he needs to do. Dach is at D+1 Suzuki levels right now, the ball is in his camp and his only.

He’ll figure it out if he's given time but people also need to change their perception.

He's not Eric Lindros and people (not saying you specifically) expecting him to play that way strictly because he's big, are setting themselves up for failure.

 

[Vachon23]

Don't forget guys that Big skills player usually take more time to develop then a small player with skills.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Yes but he was badly misused in those three years.

Yeah yeah, sure he was. Every player that is soft as butter and underperforming is misused. It can never be the players fault. I know we’ve been down this road before.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah yeah, sure he was. Every player that is soft as butter and underperforming is misused. It can never be the players fault. I know we’ve been down this road before.

Yep, we sure have. Some posters aren't able to see bad development even when it's staring them straight in the eye. They aren't able to understand or see any nuance at all. The moment a player struggles, it's immediately "on them". It's "their fault".

Nevermind that they were rushed to the NHL. Or that they were rushed from an injury. None of that matters. It's ONLY production that matters.

Thank God we got rid of Ducharme or people would be saying the same thing about Caufield right now.

 

[Naslundforever]

I find the perimeter knocks a bit harsh, he definitely likes to play on the outside but he gets his nose dirty in one on one battles and often wins them.

He's not strictly on the perimeter like say Drouin is.

With a bit more luck he'd have a few more points imo.

Hate to say it but Jo has been going to both nets recently Dach is only 21 and has all the potential, but he does not look like he scares anyone yet or has any urgency to his game. I still see early Eller.

 

[Naslundforever]

del

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Yep, we sure have. Some posters aren't able to see bad development even when it's staring them straight in the eye. They aren't able to understand or see any nuance at all. The moment a player struggles, it's immediately "on them". It's "their fault".

Nevermind that they were rushed to the NHL. Or that they were rushed from an injury. None of that matters. It's ONLY production that matters.

Thank God we got rid of Ducharme or people would be saying the same thing about Caufield right now.

I remember you praising Ducharme for his work with KK. Funny how things turn out.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I remember you praising Ducharme for his work with KK. Funny how things turn out.

Indeed I did. He started off pretty well and then repeated the same errors CJ did and I immediately ripped him. If a coach does something well, I'll praise them. If they do something I don't agree with, I'll say so.

And Dach's a pretty clear cut case of a mismanaged player. Chicago f***ed up with him and I'm pretty sure they'd say as much if asked. I'm not sure how anyone with an ounce of an open mind can't see this.

Which begs the question as to whether or not he can be rescued. He's a project and the Habs knew it going in. But MSL has shown that he at least has some talent in terms of getting struggling players on track. That makes it a gamble worth taking.

Best thing you can do with a player who has confidence issues is to give them ice and good linemates. Seeing Monahan with him is a good move. The other thing that's required is... patience. Something this organization has sorely lacked and it's bit us in the ass for most of the past decade.

I expect we'll give him every opportunity. If we do that and give him time, then the rest is up to him. If we don't... then the team deserves criticism for how he's handled. It's not hard to understand. Fortunately, the new regime is more enlightened than the old one. So I expect we'll see them approach things much differently.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I feel like the agita around this player is way out of line with both what he's done already in the NHL and what we paid. We traded a #4-5D who was made redundant by other prospects for a guy who has a floor of a good 3C. I personally am quite bullish on the long-term potential here but even if the skeptics are mostly right and he "busts", never developing beyond gaining a bit of veteran experience, that's not a remotely bad outcome. Romanov is a perfectly reasonable price to pay for a long-term 3C that adds unique playmaking skills to a PP unit.

The Eller talk in here is actually a really funny and illustrative thing, because in no world is that a bad outcome. Lars Eller has been a long-term 3C putting up mid to high 30s point totals on a contending team for the past 6 years, and was capable of stepping up effectively in a 2C role in the playoffs with Backstrom missing time when Washington won the cup. Is that supposed to be concerning as a "negative" outcome for a guy we got in return for Romanov and some throw-ins?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Drouin is awful at it and avoids it at all costs.

Wouldn't say that about Dach.

Yes, I do, but plenty of players have been and are successful playing this way.

Not everyone needs to play “inside” like Gallagher either.

He’ll figure it out if he's given time but people also need to change their perception.

He's not Eric Lindros and people (not saying you specifically) expecting him to play that way strictly because he's big, are setting themselves up for failure.

I agree. Especially since if you look at Dach's small sample this year, arguments of what his "perimeter" playstyle are achieving vs. what's actually being recorded don't match up.

On the team at 5v5, Dach is:

-5th in S/60
-4th in ixGF/60
-6th in iCF/60

And heat maps show he's taking most of his shots scoring areas. He's actually been too "inside" (in the blue paint and the net corners). I think he needs to get actual shots off in scoring positions more, but you'd think he was taking a ton of shots from beyond the dots based on some comments here.

He's been better than he was in Chicago and you can see what HuGo saw in him and what they're trying to build towards.

Fans in general seem to get idealized expectations of how players should play and get upset when those players have never played that way and don't actually play that way.

 

[Mrb1p]

I agree. Especially since if you look at Dach's small sample this year, arguments of what his "perimeter" playstyle are achieving vs. what's actually being recorded don't match up.

On the team at 5v5, Dach is:

-5th in S/60
-4th in ixGF/60
-6th in iCF/60

And heat maps show he's taking most of his shots scoring areas. He's actually been too "inside" (in the blue paint and the net corners). I think he needs to get actual shots off in scoring positions more, but you'd think he was taking a ton of shots from beyond the dots based on some comments here.

He's been better than he was in Chicago and you can see what HuGo saw in him and what they're trying to build towards.

Fans in general seem to get idealized expectations of how players should play and get upset when those players have never played that way and don't actually play that way.

He has 12 shots on the year.

Maybe a little refresher on statistical analysis would help the average hockey fan understand them better. You can do this in G*Power if you want, youll find that 12 shots is as relevant as saying Poehling has scored too many goals in his career while looking at the 2020 season.

 

[Captain Mountain]

He has 12 shots on the year.

Maybe a little refresher on statistical analysis would help the average hockey fan understand them better. You can do this in G*Power if you want, youll find that 12 shots is as relevant as saying Poehling has scored too many goals in his career while looking at the 2020 season.

I understand that some hockey fans struggle with math, but its actually kind of important to have context in order to understand what is actually happening.

Dach has 11 shots 5v5. That's the same number of shots as Suzuki and Dvorak 5v5.

Dach has 1 shot on goal on the PP.

5v5 =/= PP. Adjustments to be made on the PP need not be applicable 5v5 and vice versa.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I understand that some hockey fans struggle with math, but its actually kind of important to have context in order to understand what is actually happening.

Dach has 11 shots 5v5. That's the same number of shots as Suzuki and Dvorak 5v5.

Dach has 1 shot on goal on the PP.

5v5 =/= PP. Adjustments to be made on the PP need not be applicable 5v5 and vice versa.

I didn't notice him yesterday but to be fair, I didn't notice many of our forwards. Not sure about their stats but I didn't really notice Suzuki at all.

As for Dach, hopefully we can do something with him. If the experiment doesn't work, we could always try him on the wing.

 

[Mrb1p]

I understand that some hockey fans struggle with math, but its actually kind of important to have context in order to understand what is actually happening.

Dach has 11 shots 5v5. That's the same number of shots as Suzuki and Dvorak 5v5.

Dach has 1 shot on goal on the PP.

5v5 =/= PP. Adjustments to be made on the PP need not be applicable 5v5 and vice versa.

11 is too small a number to be relevant on a heat map, was my point.

 

[Kennerback]

Dach is a genuine 3rd line Center right now. He can provide a bit of secondary offence. He covers lots of ice quickly and is responsible defensively. He’s great at playing the Center despite the comments of misinformed personalities.

He has two aspects to develop, strength and offence. He needs to hit the weight room big time. He’ll also develop size and confidence at using the beginning of sandpaper he already has.

Then the offence will come from spending hours of shooting pucks and replace half his passes in the offensive zone with shots. And skip low percentage dekes of the last D for a shot. He fiddles too much with the puck and doesn’t put the puck on net.

 

[BLONG7]

Patience guys.........keep saying this, but he is 21
Someone mentioned, how kids with size seem to take some time ( Leclair comes to mind )
We are still in a raw stage of a rebuild. Having Dach as a #2 or #3 Centre moving forward is a good thing.

 

[Naslundforever]

I feel like the agita around this player is way out of line with both what he's done already in the NHL and what we paid. We traded a #4-5D who was made redundant by other prospects for a guy who has a floor of a good 3C. I personally am quite bullish on the long-term potential here but even if the skeptics are mostly right and he "busts", never developing beyond gaining a bit of veteran experience, that's not a remotely bad outcome. Romanov is a perfectly reasonable price to pay for a long-term 3C that adds unique playmaking skills to a PP unit.

The Eller talk in here is actually a really funny and illustrative thing, because in no world is that a bad outcome. Lars Eller has been a long-term 3C putting up mid to high 30s point totals on a contending team for the past 6 years, and was capable of stepping up effectively in a 2C role in the playoffs with Backstrom missing time when Washington won the cup. Is that supposed to be concerning as a "negative" outcome for a guy we got in return for Romanov and some throw-ins?

I see it as good potential, Eller became bigger and more north-south at some point and is a good player. I also read some posters evaluate Dach as truculent and physical, which I don’t see but would def add tons to his game. Good hands, can skate well for a tall guy. Telegraphs a lot from the periphery for me so far.

 

[Mrb1p]

I see it as good potential, Eller became bigger and more north-south at some point and is a good player. I also read some posters evaluate Dach as truculent and physical, which I don’t see but would def add tons to his game. Good hands, can skate well for a tall guy. Telegraphs a lot from the periphery for me so far.

Eller was always a gritty player. Even when he was a 170 pounds wet hed go in the corners and battle it out and then come out and drive towards the net.

Dach is floating most of the time and plays a very junior game, I can't blame him as it worked for him and he could never really develop any other part of his game because he was rushed. Not sure him being a 2C for the Habs is too encouraging for the future though, I want Suzuki at 2C.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I agree. Especially since if you look at Dach's small sample this year, arguments of what his "perimeter" playstyle are achieving vs. what's actually being recorded don't match up.

On the team at 5v5, Dach is:

-5th in S/60
-4th in ixGF/60
-6th in iCF/60

And heat maps show he's taking most of his shots scoring areas. He's actually been too "inside" (in the blue paint and the net corners). I think he needs to get actual shots off in scoring positions more, but you'd think he was taking a ton of shots from beyond the dots based on some comments here.

He's been better than he was in Chicago and you can see what HuGo saw in him and what they're trying to build towards.

Fans in general seem to get idealized expectations of how players should play and get upset when those players have never played that way and don't actually play that way.

I don’t care what your heat maps are saying. He’s soft and playing on the perimeter. He lacks intensity, he makes Drouin look like a power forward.

 

[1909]

Eller was always a gritty player. Even when he was a 170 pounds wet hed go in the corners and battle it out and then come out and drive towards the net.

Dach is floating most of the time and plays a very junior game, I can't blame him as it worked for him and he could never really develop any other part of his game because he was rushed. Not sure him being a 2C for the Habs is too encouraging for the future though, I want Suzuki at 2C.

Like KK, another 3 OA, Dach was rushed to NHL level before being NHL ready... And now BOTH players are paying the price.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Indeed I did. He started off pretty well and then repeated the same errors CJ did and I immediately ripped him. If a coach does something well, I'll praise them. If they do something I don't agree with, I'll say so.

And Dach's a pretty clear cut case of a mismanaged player. Chicago f***ed up with him and I'm pretty sure they'd say as much if asked. I'm not sure how anyone with an ounce of an open mind can't see this.

Which begs the question as to whether or not he can be rescued. He's a project and the Habs knew it going in. But MSL has shown that he at least has some talent in terms of getting struggling players on track. That makes it a gamble worth taking.

Best thing you can do with a player who has confidence issues is to give them ice and good linemates. Seeing Monahan with him is a good move. The other thing that's required is... patience. Something this organization has sorely lacked and it's bit us in the ass for most of the past decade.

I expect we'll give him every opportunity. If we do that and give him time, then the rest is up to him. If we don't... then the team deserves criticism for how he's handled. It's not hard to understand. Fortunately, the new regime is more enlightened than the old one. So I expect we'll see them approach things much differently.

All this says is that you don’t know what a good developmental coach is vs a bad developmental coach. You use hindsight to form your opinion, kk was playing well for a stretch so you thought DD was good for his development, which was laughable at the time and even more laughable in hindsight.

You say if the player struggles he was misused and if he performs he was developed well. The truth is, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

There was no point in time where DD was good, nor did he forget what he did well and become terrible. He was bad from day 1, but because kk was on a small heater you gave credit to DD instead of KK.

 

[Kennerback]

Like KK, another 3 OA, Dach was rushed to NHL level before being NHL ready... And now BOTH players are paying the price.

Do you think KK would be a better offensive player if he played in the AHL and Europe? I don’t. He’s not offensive minded player. It’s not in him.

For Dach, his key problem has always been his shot. He can practice in his garage. ahl, WHL, NHL doesn’t matter. He needs to put the hours and hope there’s progress.

 

[ReHabs]

Do you think KK would be a better offensive player if he played in the AHL and Europe? I don’t. He’s not offensive minded player. It’s not in him.

For Dach, his key problem has always been his shot. He can practice in his garage. ahl, WHL, NHL doesn’t matter. He needs to put the hours and hope there’s progress.

Slaf on the other hand, with his CV, you think is the next Jagr

I think you just like rooting for whatever players Hughes acquired no matter what. That’s fine, we never got into trouble with blind optimism before…

 

[1909]

Do you think KK would be a better offensive player if he played in the AHL and Europe? I don’t. He’s not offensive minded player. It’s not in him.

For Dach, his key problem has always been his shot. He can practice in his garage. ahl, WHL, NHL doesn’t matter. He needs to put the hours and hope there’s progress.

Dach had a very badly broken wrist two years ago. That doen't help a shot. As for KK, the kid should never had been put in a NHL game at 18. His attitude towards his coaches is not the best either. Another headcase à la Galchy who are listening more their fathers than their coaches.

 

[Kennerback]

Slaf on the other hand, with his CV, you think is the next Jagr

I think you just like rooting for whatever players Hughes acquired no matter what. That’s fine.

I think Slaf is much closer to explode offensively than Dach. But I like Dach and hope for the best. Not having that heavy shot yet is limiting him.