Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[HostileCapSpace]

I'm much happier with Dach so far this year than Dvorak.

Most people would agree with that but that's also because people don't really care about Dvorak and don't see him as part of the future of this team. It's evident he's struggling this year (did have a good stretch last year) but we know he's gone at some point, say like when Beck or another C gets to the NHL.

 

[26Mats]

Most people would agree with that but that's also because people don't really care about Dvorak and don't see him as part of the future of this team. It's evident he's struggling this year (did have a good stretch last year) but we know he's gone at some point, say like when Beck or another C gets to the NHL.

Dvorak has some skill. He's just not dynamic enough to be a truly good center offensively or defensively.

So, I'd try him on the wing, either with Suzuki and Caufield or Dach. He'd be our next best winger after Monahan, imo. He could get back to producing at a 40 to 50 point pace, and help Dach's development. This would also get his trade value up.

I'd cut our losses with Dadonov and Hoffman. They will never get their trade value up. Send them to Laval and go out and get a 4c like Tyler Pitlick. Maybe use Rem Pitlick at 4c in the meantime.

 

[WinterLion]

He is not perfect. That's for sure. Still his size, skill and solid D make him a worthy project.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I try to be optimistic about Dach. It's only been what? 6 games? However, he just seems so passive in his play. No drive/intensity and no cutting to the middle. Hope they can work with him on this.

The problem we have with Dach is that we don’t have a depth of good wingers to give him. He’s a project and we should be doing everything we can to help him succeed. That’s tough to do when you don’t have the talent to help out.

I almost feel like we could double shift Cc a couple of times a night just give Dach some opportunity. That might help a little. Drouin is a lame duck here and he knows it. He’s not going to help. Maybe some shifts with Monahan…

 

[ZUKI]

Over the years ,i saw a lot of players struggling for a while with their new team. I know that several are ok but a lot of players take half or 3/4 of the season to find their game and ajust to a new system and new linemates.

There has been a lot of changes last season, and a NHL's injuries record. It's like the players never were able to develop linemates complicity. I know that my opinion isn't going in the same direction of most of the fans, but i still believe that the Habs were not as bad as they looked last season. Just too much changes, too much injuries. Too much players that under performed.

There has been several changes this summer again. So, i don't really care about how the players performed right now. I will after 45-60 games .

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We have 3 years worth of data. Not 6 games. Goal Caufield is and has always been elite at scoring. Kirby has never been.

Yes but he was badly misused in those three years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I guess you haven't played hockey with actual NHL players before...

I understand we're all armchair critics here, but I seriously doubt your shot "back in the day" was at even Dach level. I get that the game seems so simple when watching it on TV, but even with their flaws, these guys are the absolute best in the world in their chosen field. When you step on the ice with them, even playing at 75% they put you in your place real quick.

I used to skate uphill both ways when playing.

That’s why I was so slow…

 

[RationalExpectations]

Over the years ,i saw a lot of players struggling for a while with their new team. I know that several are ok but a lot of players take half or 3/4 of the season to find their game and ajust to a new system and new linemates.

There has been a lot of changes last season, and a NHL's injuries record. It's like the players never were able to develop linemates complicity. I know that my opinion isn't going in the same direction of most of the fans, but i still believe that the Habs were not as bad as they looked last season. Just too much changes, too much injuries. Too much players that under performed.

There has been several changes this summer again. So, i don't really care about how the players performed right now. I will after 45-60 games .

I agree we should not draw conclusion yet. However, and I say this as a guy who loved the dach gamble in 2019 from CHI because of his high hockey IQ, there was one key thing he had to improve : his shot. He has not done that over the past 3 years in CHI, which is the thing that worries me most.

The issue with Dach in that sense is the same as with Drouin, you need to have a great shot to be a key player in this league, sometimes because you will score but also because the opposite D needs to take you seriously. Same issue with Wideman on the PP.

 

[Paddy17]

You hit the nail on the head. Basically, it's a rollercoaster ride and some fans are dwelling on the 7 game point of that long up/down ride. It's a hockey mad market and you can easily fall in the short sample trap and that spins.

Trying to project Dach's future based on the Blackhawks sample and 7 games with the Habs.... How accurate do we think we will be? All I will say is it's cheap talk to focus on the negative parts cause probability says they usually don't reach their ceilings. You don't really get any credit for saying he will only be a 3C.

With both Dach and Slaf, we were wondering what kind of start they would have. Like if they would bust out right away with us. Would be nice but it didn't happen so now we are deflated and dwell on their low points in potential? How about we just let them play hockey and evaluate at 1/4 points of the season? 7 games in vs 20 games in. I'm sure there will be lots more information we get in between just that range right?

The same people who make definitive calls about a player's future are the same ones who whine about development, yet they show that they don't believe in development by their very actions (words).

 

[Gabriel Sagala]

On pace for 35 pts, wich would be his best season, missed couples of chances. Better than KK for cheaper contract

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

On pace for 35 pts, wich would be his best season, missed couples of chances. Better than KK for cheaper contract

Just needs to keep his head up a bit he suffers from big man syndrome

 

[Mrb1p]

I find the perimeter knocks a bit harsh, he definitely likes to play on the outside but he gets his nose dirty in one on one battles and often wins them.

He's not strictly on the perimeter like say Drouin is.

With a bit more luck he'd have a few more points imo.

He is a perimeter player. I mean everyone will try and dig pucks in the corner, even Drouin does it.

Being a perimeter player means that you defer to the outside rather than inside, it means that instead of cutting inside, you loop back up to keep possession. It means that youre content with stretch passes and cross box plays rather than challenging the box, it means that you take shots from the outside rather than cutting in for a better shot. Dont tell me you dont picture Dach when I describe it like that.

Suzuki was a perimeter player in his first year. Hed very rarely challenge a defender, hed rarely move his skates to make a D bite from the inside, hed almost never shoot from inside. Hes literally leveled up the moment he got more confident and when he started pushing the pace.

Thats what Dach isnt doing and thats what he needs to do. Dach is at D+1 Suzuki levels right now, the ball is in his camp and his only.

We have 3 years worth of data. Not 6 games. Goal Caufield is and has always been elite at scoring. Kirby has never been.

To be fair he has shown flashes of brilliance in his D year. Thats not up for debate.

Yes but he was badly misused in those three years.

Heh, was he? Last year he mostly played with Kane, this year he has similar ice time and were whining that he doesnt have good wingers.

Im all for blaming the coach or the context as most of you know, but this aint it.

On pace for 35 pts, wich would be his best season, missed couples of chances. Better than KK for cheaper contract

KKs career high is .44 PPG, which is just over currents Dach, while playing 4th line.

Cheaper, yes, but at the cost of Romanov, who would be our best D lol.

KKs also playing top line on the top team in the league, that Dach is better than him is a stretch. Hes the most used forward for the Canes. All KKs stats are literally 10% over except for raw points.

Oh yeah and hes also at 60% on FOs.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He is a perimeter player. I mean everyone will try and dig pucks in the corner, even Drouin does it.

Being a perimeter player means that you defer to the outside rather than inside, it means that instead of cutting inside, you loop back up to keep possession. It means that youre content with stretch passes and cross box plays rather than challenging the box, it means that you take shots from the outside rather than cutting in for a better shot. Dont tell me you dont picture Dach when I describe it like that.

Suzuki was a perimeter player in his first year. Hed very rarely challenge a defender, hed rarely move his skates to make a D bite from the inside, hed almost never shoot from inside. Hes literally leveled up the moment he got more confident and when he started pushing the pace.

Thats what Dach isnt doing and thats what he needs to do. Dach is at D+1 Suzuki levels right now, the ball is in his camp and his only.




To be fair he has shown flashes of brilliance in his D year. Thats not up for debate.


Heh, was he? Last year he mostly played with Kane, this year he has similar ice time and were whining that he doesnt have good wingers.

Im all for blaming the coach or the context as most of you know, but this aint it.



KKs career high is .44 PPG, which is just over currents Dach, while playing 4th line.

Cheaper, yes, but at the cost of Romanov, who would be our best D lol.

KKs also playing top line on the top team in the league, that Dach is better than him is a stretch. Hes the most used forward for the Canes. All KKs stats are literally 10% over except for raw points.

I agree with everything you said... except for the Romanov would be our best D. He's not as developed as what the popular belief is. He's not putting up points and he's turning the puck over more than the average D. Guhle and Wifi in their 1st year is just as good as Romanov was last year to us. Reality.

 

[Mrb1p]

I agree with everything you said... except for the Romanov would be our best D. He's not as developed as what the popular belief is. He's not putting up points and he's turning the puck over more than the average D. Guhle and Wifi in their 1st year is just as good as Romanov was last year to us. Reality.

He was our best D last year and I have no doubts hed still be. Anyway, I dont think its a bad thing to have another potential top 3 D that hits like Romanov. Dach and him are similar pieces so Im not too mad.

 

[Fainting Couch]

All KKs stats are literally 10% over except for raw points.

Translation - He talks to more girls at the club but still ends up going home alone. Unable to finish. Still Kakaniemi.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He was our best D last year and I have no doubts hed still be. Anyway, I dont think its a bad thing to have another potential top 3 D that hits like Romanov. Dach and him are similar pieces so Im not too mad.

I am a big Romanov fan but I'm not sure how good he ends up to be honest. He's a great hitter but there are flaws to his defensive reliability. Things that can get better with more maturity. If Romaonv was showing signs of putting up more points, I'd be a little concerned.

I do agree they are similar pieces at this stage. Who improves the most in the next 1-3 years? Not sure but we will be watching

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Heh, was he? Last year he mostly played with Kane, this year he has similar ice time and were whining that he doesnt have good wingers.

Im all for blaming the coach or the context as most of you know, but this aint it.

He definitely was.

He was brought up way too early to begin with. Then he got hurt and they rushed him back before he was fully healed. There are several articles on this (much of it is from fansided type sites so I won't post them here) and it seems to be a classic case of mismanaging a prospect.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's going to bounce back for us of course. The damage might already be done and the injury history doesn't help. But again, this is the kind of gamble that it makes sense to take when you're rebuilding.

 

[Mrb1p]

He definitely was.

He was brought up way too early to begin with. Then he got hurt and they rushed him back before he was fully healed. There are several articles on this (much of it is from fansided type sites so I won't post them here) and it seems to be a classic case of mismanaging a prospect.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's going to bounce back for us of course. The damage might already be done and the injury history doesn't help. But again, this is the kind of gamble that it makes sense to take when you're rebuilding.

Well yeah he was clearly rushed, thats a fact. This year and last though... Hes got the ice time, the opportunity, hes played with the GOAT US player... theres worst situations.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well yeah he was clearly rushed, thats a fact. This year and last though... Hes got the ice time, the opportunity, hes played with the GOAT US player... theres worst situations.

Here's an interesting article on his mismanagement. It appears to be a fan writing it so take it for what it's worth but he does bring some interesting points: The mishandling of Kirby Dach It doesn't sound like he should've been playing at all...

The Hawks definitely screwed the pooch with this guy. And as we've seen for the past decade plus here in Montreal: development matters.

 

[dinodebino]

It is kinda his fault. He is a perimeter player and defer to his teammate too much. You dont see people say this about Nick and Cole, because they take matter on their own hands, they challenge defenders, etc.

Dach is every bit as talented as them and should be every bit as good as them.

THIS. He’s way too passive. Thus the reason he wasn’t used on the 6 on 5 the other night.

Needs to show commitment.

I see the skills. I don’t see the will for now.

 

[Rob Sense]

He is a perimeter player. I mean everyone will try and dig pucks in the corner, even Drouin does it.

Being a perimeter player means that you defer to the outside rather than inside, it means that instead of cutting inside, you loop back up to keep possession. It means that youre content with stretch passes and cross box plays rather than challenging the box, it means that you take shots from the outside rather than cutting in for a better shot. Dont tell me you dont picture Dach when I describe it like that.

Suzuki was a perimeter player in his first year. Hed very rarely challenge a defender, hed rarely move his skates to make a D bite from the inside, hed almost never shoot from inside. Hes literally leveled up the moment he got more confident and when he started pushing the pace.

Thats what Dach isnt doing and thats what he needs to do. Dach is at D+1 Suzuki levels right now, the ball is in his camp and his only.




To be fair he has shown flashes of brilliance in his D year. Thats not up for debate.


Heh, was he? Last year he mostly played with Kane, this year he has similar ice time and were whining that he doesnt have good wingers.

Im all for blaming the coach or the context as most of you know, but this aint it.



KKs career high is .44 PPG, which is just over currents Dach, while playing 4th line.

Cheaper, yes, but at the cost of Romanov, who would be our best D lol.

KKs also playing top line on the top team in the league, that Dach is better than him is a stretch. Hes the most used forward for the Canes. All KKs stats are literally 10% over except for raw points.

Oh yeah and hes also at 60% on FOs.

How can he be a perimeter player when he is the Habs forward that enters the zone with the puck the most and is often at the front of net or battling for possession back of net? asking for a friend!

 

[Captain97]

On pace for 35 pts, wich would be his best season, missed couples of chances. Better than KK for cheaper contract

And he could easily have more has set up teammates for breakaways and great chances + hit the post last game.

He is playing well the offense will definitely come. I'm prdocitng he finishes the the year with 40-45 points (I'll say 42)

 

[HuGort]

I guess you haven't played hockey with actual NHL players before...

I understand we're all armchair critics here, but I seriously doubt your shot "back in the day" was at even Dach level. I get that the game seems so simple when watching it on TV, but even with their flaws, these guys are the absolute best in the world in their chosen field. When you step on the ice with them, even playing at 75% they put you in your place real quick.

In high school. Dach must have either poor hand eye coordination or poor anticipation. To be weak in faceoffs and weak shot also. For a hard accurate shot can be developed. Has to be timing. Catch that goalie offguard. Faceoffs I found were about plan, balance and timing. Timing big because others were routine. Somebody never took many draws never had timing. Could tell a difference when drawing against them. For after doing dozens or hundreds draws you get a sense when official was going to drop the puck. Wasn't 100% no, i get tossed once in blue moon or redraw but majority of time I sensed when puck was going to be dropped.

I always skated by faceoff circle, then bend at hips and knees, with my stick across both knees. I tried to copy a hybrid between Bobby Clarke and Jacques Lemaire. Good balance. Then make tight circle, come straight into faceoff dot, try to be second one to put stick down. I bend lower with right hand low on stick. I am right shot. I knew had about a second, then fraction of a second puck be on its way. I tried to get underneath his stick and back to right D. Once every 12 to 15 times I would cross opponet up and go forward. It rarely worked but it crossed up opponent. He didn't know what I was going to do. I was pretty good in faceoffs.

 

[Habs]

I am a big Romanov fan but I'm not sure how good he ends up to be honest. He's a great hitter but there are flaws to his defensive reliability. Things that can get better with more maturity. If Romaonv was showing signs of putting up more points, I'd be a little concerned.

I do agree they are similar pieces at this stage. Who improves the most in the next 1-3 years? Not sure but we will be watching

reminds me of Emelin. A serviceable player that would benefit a depth role on a solid blueline, not a developing one.

 

[bcv]

He’s gonna be included in a trade for Dubois this summer