Player Discussion Kevin Hayes - Part II

[Vinny DeAngelo]

He is only 26. And look at this production since December 2017 commenced. What he has been doing for 13 months basically. This cannot be looked as just a hot streak anymore. This has extended far beyond this past year.

So since he started negotiating his deal?

 

[Off Sides]

People are talking about how/if Kreider, Zbad, etc fit into the rebuild.

The timeline is kind of what it is, they have, imo, zero top pair defenders, most are borderline if not should be 3rd pair guys, that is going to take a pretty long time to fix. If something does not happen there, Kreider and Zbad will be the next ones being debated about where best to keep them or try to use the trade return from them to hopefully bolster the next timeline.

I don't think anyone is saying they would not under different circumstance want to retain Hayes. Most seem to be trying to piece together some timeline when the Rangers can have all, top center, top wings, 2nd line center, top pair, 2nd pair, and goalie all in their prime all at nearly the same time, while all that also fits under the cap for long enough for them to maybe have a longish term window of contention.

 

[apoptygma]

I think we should look to the Jordan Staal trade as compareable. Staal was 1 year away from UFA when he was traded to Carolina at the 2012 draft. Jordan Staal then signed a long time deal a few weels later. Difference with Hayes is that it will be either a sign-and-trade or trade then resign ASAP situation where the recieving team has been alowed to negotiate a long term deal with Hayes before the trade. This should drive the price up towards what Staal got, as they are pretty compareable as players.

Trade was Jordan Staal for 8 pick overall 2012, middle 6 center Brandon Sutter (23 year old, year 1/3 on a bridge deal, former 11. overall) & d-prospect Brian Dumoulin (21 year old, just finished 3. year in college, former 51. overall, just signed his ELC a few months before the trade).

I would expect from this Hayes returning a lower 1. (no team looking to go into the lottery will trade theirs without protection), a young nhl players with what looks like limited upside and a good, but not spectacular upside.

Comparing to CAR assets it would look someting like top 10 protected 1., Warren Foegle and Jake Bean.
The exact prospect/players we will get will be diccicult to forsee, byt NYR need young assets in all positions, and should focus getting as good prospects as possible, then sort out the who plays where later when they know more of what they have.

If no deal can be made with Hayes before camp I think we should see a return closer to what Nash got. Late 1., B-prospect and maybe another pick to take some salery back.

 

[RangerBoy]

 

[redwhiteandblue]

First of all he never put up 50 pts... Theres 100s of examples of guys performing an another level in contract years. I'm just saying be careful before you crown him and tie up a ton of money with him

I didn't see this earlier because I was getting my teeth kicked in at work. I agree there's 100 examples of contract years. I just don't see it. Think it's a week argument. If he was 29 going on 30 or maybe early 30's I'd say let's talk about it. He definitely has another contract in a more-than-likely richer NHL in about 5-6 years where he will get paid very well. If money was his motivation lets be realistic he a) wouldn't be entertaining a contract talk with the team last off-season and b) would be hungry but know he has at least one more big contract coming barring injury.

I'm not trying to come off as someone that Kevin Hayes will be the hill he dies on. Hayes may very well be at his max but he may just as well be finding another level and there's more evidence to support the latter than the former.

I've stayed out of it more recently because it definitely comes down to a NMC and his feelings on it. Rangers will give him one but at their terms not his. The rest is a waiting game. If we end up with two 27 and younger 70 point centers with a plethora of talent coming up and plenty of draft picks and don't see it out a little further I'd be disappointed.

I wish this teams defense wasn't such a dumpster fire so we didn't have to get rid of him. It really is the blame of Staal and Smith mostly as to why we can't afford to have him locked up by now.

 

[will1066]

So, they're basically like us? But a lot richer.

Yeah, I was gonna say, they're younger than many of us and already making more money than we will amass in our lifetimes.

Let that sink in a little.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I didn't see this earlier because I was getting my teeth kicked in at work. I agree there's 100 examples of contract years. I just don't see it. Think it's a week argument. If he was 29 going on 30 or maybe early 30's I'd say let's talk about it. He definitely has another contract in a more-than-likely richer NHL in about 5-6 years where he will get paid very well. If money was his motivation lets be realistic he a) wouldn't be entertaining a contract talk with the team last off-season and b) would be hungry but know he has at least one more big contract coming barring injury.

I'm not trying to come off as someone that Kevin Hayes will be the hill he dies on. Hayes may very well be at his max but he may just as well be finding another level and there's more evidence to support the latter than the former.

I've stayed out of it more recently because it definitely comes down to a NMC and his feelings on it. Rangers will give him one but at their terms not his. The rest is a waiting game. If we end up with two 27 and younger 70 point centers with a plethora of talent coming up and plenty of draft picks and don't see it out a little further I'd be disappointed.

I wish this teams defense wasn't such a dumpster fire so we didn't have to get rid of him. It really is the blame of Staal and Smith mostly as to why we can't afford to have him locked up by now.

I think him taking the 1 yr deal is plenty of proof that the money matters to him. He wanted to get to UFA and cash in..

 

[redwhiteandblue]

It was pretty well reported that Hayes was looking for a 5 year deal at about $5.5. Even before his current play this year I was behind taking that. That to me does not scream "I want a pay day" to me. $5.5-$6 would be reasonable and fair asking price to bring to the table.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

It was pretty well reported that Hayes was looking for a 5 year deal at about $5.5. Even before his current play this year I was behind taking that. That to me does not scream "I want a pay day" to me. $5.5-$6 would be reasonable and fair asking price to bring to the table.

Except the team offered him 5 years at under 6 million and he clearly didn’t sign

He’s going to get 6 years for 6.5 million+ this summer. And he wants trade protections which the Rangers clearly don’t want any part of

So they’re at an impasse, same as they were last summer

 

[Kendo]

Hayes point totals:...

Right. Hasn't hit 50 before. He is playing the best hockey of his career, but it is still a leap of faith to label him an elite 65-point two-way center. There is always the chance of this year being an aberration. To be fair, I would have agreed if he were labeled a "55+ point center," although he hadn't literally hit 50.

Please, someone show me in that timeline where he went off the rails was found in a Queens coke den and needs to be shipped out before he slobs up and regresses. I'm just confused. Justifying merit to shop him because we're rebuilding is fine but lets talk about Mike and CK too. Talking about trading him because he's going to regress, he's playing for a contract, or anything else is short sighted and narrow minded. Fortune favors the bold. This is not history repeating itself.

Mika is on a friendly contract with very similar production and a righty shot. I'd keep him for now, and reconsider in his contract year.
If we sign Panarin, then I'm listening to offers for CK.
The "coke den" line was pretty funny, tho.

I wish this teams defense wasn't such a dumpster fire so we didn't have to get rid of him. It really is the blame of Staal and Smith mostly as to why we can't afford to have him locked up by now.

On this, we agree. Staal and Smith (and to a lesser extent Girardi) are the reasons we can't afford a non-elite big contract. If we could trade Staal and Smith for 7th rounders without retention next week, then I'd be on the "re-sign Hayes" bandwagon.

 

[tradenashnow]

I think Staal can be moved at this point without retaining. You might have to take back a 2 million contract with a couple years on it. Smith, forget it. There is little hope because he sucks so bad. They probably will have to buy him out. Honestly, I'd wait one more year, stash him in the minors. Then buy him out.

 

[leetch99]

Fans that think giving up the entire team because the draft picks we get for them will make them a contender give me heartburn.

Fans that are content and don't like change must also enjoy losing or just treading water . Changes have to happen , both roster and culture need fixing . There is a price to pay to get better . The fastest route , which is likely going to be at a minimum 4 years , is by moving guys that can net a good return . Henrik is a guy that won't be able to help us when we are ready to rise up and he is also a guy that prevents us from getting into the Lottery . Hayes having a career year...move him while he is hot . Don't wait like they did on Zucc who gets us diddly squat now . Same as Kreider...same as Mika . If not this season for them then hopefully next season although Hayes time is now for us . It does not all need to be done tomorrow as it would be a hard pill for this fan base to swallow...but it would also speed up the process for the road to improvement IMO. LOL...watching this club the last 7 years has given me an ulcer...get that heartburn checked.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Hayes is on a 8 game point scoring streak where he has 5G/10A/15P.

Pretty damn insane. And we only have 2 wins in those 8 games, maybe someone else should help do something? Our "1st line center" Mika, has 4 points in those games.

Move Mika, keep Hayes.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Hayes is on a 8 game point scoring streak where he has 5G/10A/15P.

Pretty damn insane. And we only have 2 wins in those 8 games, maybe someone else should help do something? Our "1st line center" Mika, has 4 points in those games.

Move Mika, keep Hayes.

Put Kreider back on Mika's line and the point totals reverse

 

[leetch99]

We move those guys now then more than likely we finish last next season & maybe this season too or very close to it . However we have some great forwards up front to build on like Lias-Buch-Howden-Chytil-Kravstov + our possible 1st or 2nd overall Lottery pick or maybe two of them . Plus a ton of other youth and a couple of decent goalies . Our defense is something that we will need to get lucky on and is where we will need to have some great scouting and drafting and or should be targeted in any and all trades involving Mika-Hayes-CK-King-Zucc-Staal-Smith-McQuaid . It will be very bad for 18 mths or so...but we have some very decent pieces and more in the pipeline ...it is not all doom and gloom . But the longer we put it off....the longer we must suffer in mediocrity or worse . Get it done...pull the plug and flush and move on . Rangerboy knows as do a few more on here .

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Put Kreider back on Mika's line and the point totals reverse

I doubt that.

 

[Crease]

On a contender, I think Hayes and Zibanejad play the role that Brassard had on those great Rangers teams. Both are very useful players in the 2C role.

 

[leetch99]

At this point in time and speaking of Howden, Chytil and Andersson--I don't think any of them look close enough to handle a top 6 center role. Howden's offense has been floundering for well over a month. The most dangerous offensive player on his line is not him---it's been Vesey. Andersson and Chytil have both been pushed to wing. Andersson's skating still needs work and we've brought up Nieves to handle the 4C spot--moving him to the wing. Chytil can't win a face-off to save his life and if people don't think that's important--a 2C is going to get pwp time and if the first thing that always happens is he loses the draw--the second thing that happens is the puck gets cleared down the ice. All these guys can function as NHL players right now but they're not ready to become scoring line centers.

What a return for Hayes would look like is another question. Colorado's pick could be in the 20's---Winnipeg's almost certainly will be. A draft pick that late might turn out to be as good a player as Hayes or he might not and he'll probably take a couple/three years to get here.

Personally I would try to sign Kevin---I wouldn't give him trade protection though. That would at least leave the option open of trading him later if Chytil, Andersson or Howden start showing they are ready. He's a valuable player. He can put up offense--he can play in defensive situations. There will always be teams looking to add a player like that and IMO he's still got a window ahead of several years of productive play.

No way Kevin Hayes signs anything without trade protection . Just not going to happen . Somebody mentioned that Chytil could not win a draw...well I don't think it has been that long since Hayes never won many either and he was not here as a 19 year old attempting it . Chytil will add muscle and will get better and someday will make us all forget about Kevin Hayes . The flashes are there . I like what I see . Howden...same deal...still a kid . Let the seeds grow...

 

[Larrybiv]

Hayes is most definitely an excellent player when you have studs ahead of him. He’s a player that Colorado should be looking at

Absolutely, with them having 2 1st's and contending, it is a no brainer that they should be seriously looking to acquire him. Despite what many of their fans think. I believe their upper mgmt. is smarter than their fans. Why do i say that? Some say they would prefer to just keep Soderberg as their 3rd line center. Gosh, they would be so solid down the middle if indeed Kevin was their 3rd liner. He would raise up their entire 3rd line and provide stability and offensive depth.

 

[Larrybiv]

Thanks eco......enjoyed that.

 

[Larrybiv]

Am with you on course of action and theory. And yes, this is nothing but rolling the dice and taking a lot of risk. And the NTC/NMC are a VERY big con-signing argument. As I have stated, if you do not believe that this is the new normal, there is no question about it.

The question is what if it is the new normal? An elite 2nd line center who plays a two-way game? Those are not easy to find and not quite as easy to say that Andersson or Howden WILL rise to that level. They may get to be legit second line centers, but to be among the best at that position? Maybe. Hopefully. What is a fair return for such a player who is now only reaching his potential at the ripe old age of 26? Is it around a 20ish overall pick and a B level prospect and shedding 5-6 year deal with movement restrictions? What if fair value is impossible to get? Do you then just take the best deal available?

Cannot even fathom getting "fair value" for Kevin is even a thing. If we cannot get "fair" for an escalating solid 200 ft. player, then our organization had better give it up. This is a scenario we should be drooling about.......we hold ALL the cards, it is usually opposite where we get hosed. Key will be multiple teams wanting him......a bidding war so to speak. That in itself will raise his value to getting Gorton his riches.

In my world, if the best "offer" comes from Tampa, you do it in a heartbeat.......getting TB 1st, would be a plus. Not happening though, i wouldnt think.
And I would INSIST on Ottawa's 1st from Colorado. No option.
Boston seems kind of obvious, Montreal could use him as they have been known to be weak down the middle, I dont know what they have to offer us........and if they go South, so much the better getting their 1st and then some.

There will be so much going on with Kevin at deadline, so it might behoove Gorton into moving Zuccha and possibly others beforehand. But DON'T blow this by settling.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Fans that are content and don't like change must also enjoy losing or just treading water . Changes have to happen , both roster and culture need fixing . There is a price to pay to get better . The fastest route , which is likely going to be at a minimum 4 years , is by moving guys that can net a good return . Henrik is a guy that won't be able to help us when we are ready to rise up and he is also a guy that prevents us from getting into the Lottery . Hayes having a career year...move him while he is hot . Don't wait like they did on Zucc who gets us diddly squat now . Same as Kreider...same as Mika . If not this season for them then hopefully next season although Hayes time is now for us . It does not all need to be done tomorrow as it would be a hard pill for this fan base to swallow...but it would also speed up the process for the road to improvement IMO. LOL...watching this club the last 7 years has given me an ulcer...get that heartburn checked.

Wanting to give up every player even if he's young and productive because someone out there might be better doesn't make you a winner.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Re: Hayes not being a 65-point center.

He now has 31 G, 36 A, 67 P in his past 82 GP.

 

[Rangers in 7]

At this point in time and speaking of Howden, Chytil and Andersson--I don't think any of them look close enough to handle a top 6 center role. Howden's offense has been floundering for well over a month. The most dangerous offensive player on his line is not him---it's been Vesey. Andersson and Chytil have both been pushed to wing. Andersson's skating still needs work and we've brought up Nieves to handle the 4C spot--moving him to the wing. Chytil can't win a face-off to save his life and if people don't think that's important--a 2C is going to get pwp time and if the first thing that always happens is he loses the draw--the second thing that happens is the puck gets cleared down the ice. All these guys can function as NHL players right now but they're not ready to become scoring line centers.

What a return for Hayes would look like is another question. Colorado's pick could be in the 20's---Winnipeg's almost certainly will be. A draft pick that late might turn out to be as good a player as Hayes or he might not and he'll probably take a couple/three years to get here.

Personally I would try to sign Kevin---I wouldn't give him trade protection though. That would at least leave the option open of trading him later if Chytil, Andersson or Howden start showing they are ready. He's a valuable player. He can put up offense--he can play in defensive situations. There will always be teams looking to add a player like that and IMO he's still got a window ahead of several years of productive play.

If Colorado is willing to part with Ottawa’s first would you trade him?

 

[Irishguy42]

If Colorado is willing to part with Ottawa’s first would you trade him?

Helllllllllllyeah