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Player Discussion Kevin Hayes - Part II

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Edge said:
And to clarify, I have no bullet-proof plans on how to get this team to where it needs to be. Just strategies that I believe have greater odds of success. There's not really a right or wrong "answer" in these discussions.
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Absolutely, which I'm realizing. I've obviously been outspoken about Hayes and my outspoken stance is because some people are treating it as they have 'xyz' as idea and its gospel. I see merit in trading away from this core, I think if we're looking at it that way that trading both Mika and Hayes as the most logical long term option.

I'm almost playing devils advocate or even just defending KH because he's being undervalued by some and he's not getting a fair shake. Seems the tide is changing on that.

When all is said and done I'm open to having discussions about this team in general as long as they're not narrow minded. Sometimes I think my tone comes off as combative online but that's far from it.
 
Tawnos said:
I didn’t call 75 games a small sample. I said your sample is NOT 75 games. It’s two samples of 38 and 37 that you’re combining, while cutting both samples off from the full dataset they are each a real part of. One of those has Hayes as a 44 in 76 player, the other is incomplete.
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It has been stated what he has done this year. People then said his success was due to it being a contract year. So I went further back in time and have come up with a linear progression. That was to rebut the comments that "this year was just too small a sample". What you have is that his overall excellent play did not just start now. It goes back to last year.
 
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True Blue said:
It has been stated what he has done this year. People then said his success was due to it being a contract year. So I went further back in time and have come up with a linear progression. That was to rebut the comments that "this year was just too small a sample". What you have is that his overall excellent play did not just start now. It goes back to last year.
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I'd say that's perfectly fair. This year confirms the end of last year wasn't a fluke but showing this window of his progression being beyond 'contract motivation' is smart. I didn't look at it that way until now.
 
True Blue said:
It has been stated what he has done this year. People then said his success was due to it being a contract year. So I went further back in time and have come up with a linear progression. That was to rebut the comments that "this year was just too small a sample". What you have is that his overall excellent play did not just start now. It goes back to last year.
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Well, last year was a contract year too, so using it doesn't really help your case. He had an good first half and a really good second half. There's nothing in there that argues strongly that it won't be the same this year: one great half and one good half. It's just potentially happening in the reverse order. We don't know yet. The cut off you're using to create a larger sample is artificial and can be used to decide to paint the picture however you want. Earlier in this thread, someone was chopping off the hot streak to show that maybe he isn't quite that good, but that's essentially the same thing.

To date, Hayes has produced at about a 55 points per 82 rate since the beginning of 17-18. I think that number is a good candidate to end up closer to 50 points by the end of the year. It seems we have a 50-55 point player on our hands. In the face of the fact that we don't have a top-end player at any position except for arguably LW, he needs to be dealt. Chytil, Kravtsov, Andersson, Miller... these guys might become at that level, but we need to keep swinging until we're there. Hayes is a player who I strongly believe can help an existing contender, but he's not going to help a rebuilding team become one. We need more assets who can potentially be what we need.
 
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Tawnos said:
Well, last year was a contract year too, so using it doesn't really help your case. He had an good first half and a really good second half. There's nothing in there that argues strongly that it won't be the same this year: one great half and one good half. It's just potentially happening in the reverse order. We don't know yet.
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Come on now. I respect you a lot, but this is not the strongest of arguments. First of all, how was last year a contract year? Second of all now, we are going to discount the fact that he has played well in something like 77 games in a row and instead chalk it up to good in second half and good in first half? He has been doing this for close to 80 games. Want to tell me, as Edge or Jas did, that you do not believe that he is this type of player? Fine. I can buy that. But to disparage what has been going on for quite some time seems pigheadedly stubborn. Just say that you do not buy it.
The cut off you're using to create a larger sample is artificial and can be used to decide to paint the picture however you want. Earlier in this thread, someone was chopping off the hot streak to show that maybe he isn't quite that good, but that's essentially the same thing.
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Don't know what someone else was doing, but all I am doing it saying how good he has been over a large portion of time.
To date, Hayes has produced at about a 55 points per 82 rate since the beginning of 17-18. I think that number is a good candidate to end up closer to 50 points by the end of the year. It seems we have a 50-55 point player on our hands.
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Or you look at it from what he has been doing this year or what he as been doing over the last almost 80 games and find that he is scoring points at a rate that many other centers in the league do not. And the fact that he is only 26 can suggest that he is only now beginning to hit his stride. Let's not even mention that in the majority of these games, his linemates have mostly not been the Kreider's of the world and until recently his PP time was very low if anything at all.
In the face of the fact that we don't have a top-end player at any position except for arguably LW, he needs to be dealt. Chytil, Kravtsov, Andersson, Miller... these guys might become at that level, but we need to keep swinging until we're there. Hayes is a player who I strongly believe can help an existing contender, but he's not going to help a rebuilding team become one. We need more assets who can potentially be what we need.
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Again, it all comes down to what you believe him to be. IF you believe that Zbad is legit top line center and what you have been seeing from Hayes is the new normal, than that is one discussion. IF you do not believe that this is the new normal and that he is essentially just a solid 2nd line center, than it is a different discussion.

My only debates have been a) to play devil's advocate (top 2 line centers & b) to call a spade a spade as far as what his production has been over quite a large time span. Do I think that he should be traded? yeah. But for other reasons and those reasons are NOT an attempt to disparage what his production has been. Or that he has been quite the two-way player.
 
True Blue said:
Come on now. I respect you a lot, but this is not the strongest of arguments. First of all, how was last year a contract year? Second of all now, we are going to discount the fact that he has played well in something like 77 games in a row and instead chalk it up to good in second half and good in first half? He has been doing this for close to 80 games. Want to tell me, as Edge or Jas did, that you do not believe that he is this type of player? Fine. I can buy that. But to disparage what has been going on for quite some time seems pigheadedly stubborn. Just say that you do not buy it.

Don't know what someone else was doing, but all I am doing it saying how good he has been over a large portion of time.

Or you look at it from what he has been doing this year or what he as been doing over the last almost 80 games and find that he is scoring points at a rate that many other centers in the league do not. And the fact that he is only 26 can suggest that he is only now beginning to hit his stride. Let's not even mention that in the majority of these games, his linemates have mostly not been the Kreider's of the world and until recently his PP time was very low if anything at all.

Again, it all comes down to what you believe him to be. IF you believe that Zbad is legit top line center and what you have been seeing from Hayes is the new normal, than that is one discussion. IF you do not believe that this is the new normal and that he is essentially just a solid 2nd line center, than it is a different discussion.

My only debates have been a) to play devil's advocate (top 2 line centers & b) to call a spade a spade as far as what his production has been over quite a large time span. Do I think that he should be traded? yeah. But for other reasons and those reasons are NOT an attempt to disparage what his production has been. Or that he has been quite the two-way player.
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How was last year NOT a contract year, considering that his contract was expiring?!?

I don't consider partial seasons to be meaningful information, beyond the "to date" portion of the current season, that's all.

I'm not disparaging his production. I like him as a player and have been impressed with him. He's in the peak of his career. What I'm trying to do is look at it realistically, without setting arbitrary limits on what I define as "the real Kevin Hayes" which I don't think you are.
 
Tawnos said:
How was last year NOT a contract year, considering that his contract was expiring?!?

I don't consider partial seasons to be meaningful information, beyond the "to date" portion of the current season, that's all.

I'm not disparaging his production. I like him as a player and have been impressed with him. He's in the peak of his career. What I'm trying to do is look at it realistically, without setting arbitrary limits on what I define as "the real Kevin Hayes" which I don't think you are.
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It was a contract year in the sense where he was up for a new deal...

But last year vs this year is one bidder vs potentially 31 bidders. Kind of makes a difference
 
Hayes with another great interview on Spittin Chiclets. Some great stories including Marc Staal nailing Zuccarello's shoes to the floor inside his locker room stall plus all the infinite number of reasons why Henrik Lundqvist is an absolute beauty. Don't listen if you have no sense of humor. If all you want to hear is "pucks in deep" please just watch MSG. If you enjoy fun though check it out.
 
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Lias Andersson said:
Hayes with another great interview on Spittin Chiclets. Some great stories including Marc Staal nailing Zuccarello's shoes to the floor inside his locker room stall plus all the infinite number of reasons why Henrik Lundqvist is an absolute beauty. Don't listen if you have no sense of humor. If all you want to hear is "pucks in deep" please just watch MSG. If you enjoy fun though check it out.
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I've been waiting for this one.
 
What's the status on him? Did the team ever provide more details other than UBI?
 
Lias Andersson said:
Hayes with another great interview on Spittin Chiclets. Some great stories including Marc Staal nailing Zuccarello's shoes to the floor inside his locker room stall plus all the infinite number of reasons why Henrik Lundqvist is an absolute beauty. Don't listen if you have no sense of humor. If all you want to hear is "pucks in deep" please just watch MSG. If you enjoy fun though check it out.
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Crept up as maybe my favorite podcast they've done. Hull was great as was Oates and JR. I'm really enjoying the older guys we (sounds like we're of the same age) grew up on. They really tell some stories. Younger guys are fun and cool but they (rightfully) have to be tentative and hesitant with what they say but still great content.

Anyone that's actually played the game at a high level should absolutely love this.

They Hayes pod was pure Rangers porn. "Jimmy f***IN Vesey" for three and a half years from zucc. The video of Staalsy with the giant screw gun, Yands telling the guy Bucha was the trainer that helped him move, all the Bugsy stories. This was maybe my favorite episode yet. Hilarious stuff and so Rangers driven.
 
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Hayes is a beaut. He has 33 points in 40 games and is on pace to shatter his career-high 49 points from 2016-17.
 
Hayes was a monster out there yesterday. Best player on the ice aside from the goalie. Hope the scouts were in the stands.
 
The Crypto Guy said:
Hayes was a monster out there yesterday. Best player on the ice aside from the goalie. Hope the scouts were in the stands.
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I only caught the first period, and didn't follow any of the PGT chatter after. I thought he looked pretty rusty and a little off.

Did he get better as the game went on or was my perspective just way off?
 
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