Confirmed with Link: Keith Jones actually set to be named real life part-time President of Hockey Operations, Danny Briere full-time GM

[deadhead]

I'd say development has been the least of the Flyer problems the last ten years.
In order:
1) fixation on "winning now," "always competitive" led to short-sighted moves, leaking assets (mostly draft picks)
2) pro scouting, bad trades for veterans, overpriced FA signings, few "hidden gems" discovered
3) poor cap management
4) GM decision making at the top of the draft - too many whiffs and missed opportunities, and a fixation on big bois in the middle of the draft

I don't see a flood of prospects leaving and going elsewhere and having success, Myers was supposedly badly coached but if Nashville and TB can't fix you . . .
NAK, Patrick, et al have done nothing since leaving. Bunnaman, Twarynski, Friedman, Rubtsov, etc. No one can fix that "bad development?"
The only player who has had a good career the last decade as a ex-Flyer has been Cousins.
[Gudas was a 3rd pair guy in TB, Philly, Wash and Florida.]
So that suggests talent, not development, has been the real issue, trying to make sows' ears into silk purses.

A problem has been a lack of a coherent approach, Lavi to Berube to Hakstol to AV. Holmgren to Hextall to Fletcher.
They talked about the "Flyers way," but built a small, soft team that lacked great skill.

At least I get the impression that Torts/Briere know what they want, a fast, aggressive team that is smart and fundamentally sound, much like Carolina.
We'll see if they can deliver, but can't be worse than what we've seen the last decade.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'd say development has been the least of the Flyer problems the last ten years.
In order:
1) fixation on "winning now," "always competitive" led to short-sighted moves, leaking assets (mostly draft picks)
2) pro scouting, bad trades for veterans, overpriced FA signings, few "hidden gems" discovered
3) poor cap management
4) GM decision making at the top of the draft - too many whiffs and missed opportunities, and a fixation on big bois in the middle of the draft

I don't see a flood of prospects leaving and going elsewhere and having success, Myers was supposedly badly coached but if Nashville and TB can't fix you . . .
NAK, Patrick, et al have done nothing since leaving. Bunnaman, Twarynski, Friedman, Rubtsov, etc. No one can fix that "bad development?"
The only player who has had a good career the last decade as a ex-Flyer has been Cousins.
[Gudas was a 3rd pair guy in TB, Philly, Wash and Florida.]
So that suggests talent, not development, has been the real issue, trying to make sows' ears into silk purses.

A problem has been a lack of a coherent approach, Lavi to Berube to Hakstol to AV. Holmgren to Hextall to Fletcher.
They talked about the "Flyers way," but built a small, soft team that lacked great skill.

At least I get the impression that Torts/Briere know what they want, a fast, aggressive team that is smart and fundamentally sound, much like Carolina.
We'll see if they can deliver, but can't be worse than what we've seen the last decade.

So why did they set out to fix it?

Has Fletcher made more than one mistake now? You made it clear for years Fletcher knew what he was doing and had a plan. You always invented wild stories about what that plan would be, that never came to pass.

Funny to watch you slowly start throwing him under the bus.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The "development" aspect is overblown.

Prospects spend much of their development time with non-Flyers teams (juniors, NCAA, Europe, etc.).

It's not like they are training with the Flyers' development staff every day before they turn pro.

Example: Did Noah Cates become a gem of a middle-round pick because of the Flyers' development staff, when he spent 4 years before turning pro at Minnesota-Duluth?

His development came from Minnesota-Duluth.

Sure, you hope the development staff can help when the players turn pro and under the Flyers'/Phantoms' direct purview every day.

But the lack of enough impact NHLers is far more of a drafting issue than a "development" issue, considering how much player development occurs outside of the organization.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The "development" aspect is overblown.

Prospects spend much of their development time with non-Flyers teams (juniors, NCAA, Europe, etc.).

It's not like they are training with the Flyers' development staff every day before they turn pro.

Example: Did Noah Cates become a gem of a middle-round pick because of the Flyers' development staff, when he spent 4 years before turning pro at Minnesota-Duluth?

His development came from Minnesota-Duluth.

Sure, you hope the development staff can help when the players turn pro and under the Flyers'/Phantoms' direct purview every day.

But the lack of enough impact NHLers is far more of a drafting issue than a "development" issue, considering how much player development occurs outside of the organization.

I have always believed it was more a drafting issue. Need to draft talent. That being said development needs to improve.

Its funny as while not a apples to apples comparisons you see kids in youth hockey getting several private lessons a week. They do all they can. Yet you don't see the improvement one may expect Then you have some who don't get the privates and have the talent. They out perform the ones getting the "development".

Flyers get no credit for Cates but all the blame when a player doesn't make it.

 

[Embiid]

The funny part is, Jonesy has been doing the media tour, telling everyone what he brings to the job is contacts. He knows everyone from coaches to players to GM’s and agents. So, first opportunity to change things, do we get introspection, innovation, new blood? Nope, same old…

Glad-handing our way to a cup....cool strategy.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Danny Briere Takes Shot at Former Flyers Management For Lacking Development

Let them know Danny B!

www.flyersinsider.com

Danny trying to separate himself from the old guard?

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Danny Briere Takes Shot at Former Flyers Management For Lacking Development

Let them know Danny B!

www.flyersinsider.com

Danny trying to separate himself from the old guard?

Yet he was brought into the fold, trained and prepared, by the same old guard. We're at a point right now where we shouldn't ever take anything he or Jones takes at face value as results mean a hell of a lot more than talk. I also think with Torts still in the fold and having a big voice in it all really does not help either. So, in the end, he may say this, but it currently doesn't mean shit.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I have always believed it was more a drafting issue. Need to draft talent. That being said development needs to improve.

Its funny as while not a apples to apples comparisons you see kids in youth hockey getting several private lessons a week. They do all they can. Yet you don't see the improvement one may expect Then you have some who don't get the privates and have the talent. They out perform the ones getting the "development".

Flyers get no credit for Cates but all the blame when a player doesn't make it.

I'm happy they are looking to improve player development. Maybe the new guys in charge have some ideas that will help.

But, yeah, it's more about drafting the right players to begin with. I don't think the Flyers "ruined" a bunch of players who would have flourished elsewhere. Hell, Owen Tippett flourished his first season here after foundering in Florida, and there are no similar examples of Flyer draft picks pulling a Tippett when they go somewhere else.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yet he was brought into the fold, trained and prepared, by the same old guard. We're at a point right now where we shouldn't ever take anything he or Jones takes at face value as results mean a hell of a lot more than talk. I also think with Torts still in the fold and having a big voice in it all really does not help either. So, in the end, he may say this, but it currently doesn't mean shit.

agree 100%, bottom line will be his actions. Simple as that. Just find it funny he is basically saying the last 2 GM's and their staff (which he was a part of to some extent) didn't do their job. Yet he still has Lappy as coach!!!!

It is going to be worth watching who Jones aligns himself with. Briere or Torts.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I'm happy they are looking to improve player development. Maybe the new guys in charge have some ideas that will help.

But, yeah, it's more about drafting the right players to begin with. I don't think the Flyers "ruined" a bunch of players who would have flourished elsewhere. Hell, Owen Tippett flourished his first season here after foundering in Florida, and there are no similar examples of Flyer draft picks pulling a Tippett when they go somewhere else.

Yeah the ruins stuff is always entertaining good reading.

Now that being said I look at Ivan and Sanheim and I do believe they didn't do them any favors as young Dman throwing them into the fire without any good vet help to start their career.

 

[Embiid]

Danny Briere Takes Shot at Former Flyers Management For Lacking Development

Let them know Danny B!

www.flyersinsider.com

Danny trying to separate himself from the old guard?

Hilarious...same shit a decade later. Hextall ripped Holmgren basically for a horrible farm system with no homegrown talent of any significance. And here we are still......with Holmgren still an advisor and Hextall and Fletcher leaving with pretty much no home grown talent of major significance. Still laugh at the story when the Flyers lucked into the 2nd pick overall in a weak draft and Hextall fell out of his seat with joy. Yeah....Patrick....how did that work out???? Just a shitty corporate culture with this org...

 

[Curufinwe]

I'm laughing hard at the suggestion that Cousins has had a good career post Flyers, and Gudas hasn't.

In Florida Gudas has played 203 games averaging 17:40 per game, scoring 44 points (43 ES) and is +44. That's at least as valuable as what Cousins has been doing as a forward. If Fletcher wasn't so bad at his job he would have re-signed Gudas in 2020 to replace the retired Niskanen instead of giving Myers a bigger deal than Gudas got in Florida, and then going the Risto route a year later.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I'm pretty sure Brayden Schenn also considers his post-Flyers career to be "good".

341 points in 425 regular season games
26 points in 51 playoff games
1 more Cup than the Flyers have won in the past 48 years

 

[Beef Invictus]

The "development" aspect is overblown.

Prospects spend much of their development time with non-Flyers teams (juniors, NCAA, Europe, etc.).

It's not like they are training with the Flyers' development staff every day before they turn pro.

Example: Did Noah Cates become a gem of a middle-round pick because of the Flyers' development staff, when he spent 4 years before turning pro at Minnesota-Duluth?

His development came from Minnesota-Duluth.

Sure, you hope the development staff can help when the players turn pro and under the Flyers'/Phantoms' direct purview every day.

But the lack of enough impact NHLers is far more of a drafting issue than a "development" issue, considering how much player development occurs outside of the organization.

Then when they get to the Flyers, they regress. Not just youth, players at all stages of their careers. Skills development is a never-ending process that lasts until a player retires. Skills need maintenance, the game is ever changing. The Flyers do none of that work, or at least don't focus on anything useful.

Luke Schenn is still kicking because he is still working hard to develop new skills and adapt to modern hockey. The Flyers refuse, and glorify a dead era instead while shunning skilled and creative play.

This has gone on for years and years. This is why when Lecavalier left, he immediately asked to work on skills drills because his time in Philly had eroded him. It's why Patrick was a better player fresh in the league and his physical skills degraded the longer he was here. It's why our own players routinely break out and become successful as a result of ignoring what our coaching staff wants and getting back to playing the game that made them NHL players to begin with. This usually ends with them being traded, or the team being malcontent with them.

Development is a massive issue. There isn't a talent they can draft that they won't try to ruin, and they'll typically be successful at doing so.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I thought Chuck was a genius for trading Gudas for Niskanen?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I'm laughing hard at the suggestion that Cousins has had a good career post Flyers, and Gudas hasn't.

In Florida Gudas has played 203 games averaging 17:40 per game, scoring 44 points (43 ES) and is +44. That's at least as valuable as what Cousins has been doing as a forward. If Fletcher wasn't so bad at his job he would have re-signed Gudas in 2020 to replace the retired Niskanen instead of giving Myers a bigger deal than Gudas got in Florida, and then going the Risto route a year later.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I'm pretty sure Brayden Schenn also considers his post-Flyers career to be "good".

341 points in 425 regular season games
26 points in 51 playoff games
1 more Cup than the Flyers have won in the past 48 years

did anyone disagree with the Myers deal? Was anyone clamoring for Gudas at the time?

 

[deadhead]

Gudas for Niskanen was a good deal, given that Holmgren had mandated a 'win now' strategy.

3rd pair D-man for 1st pair D-man, you wonder if COVID doesn't happen and Niskanen plays with Provorov for another year or two, whether Provorov's career trajectory would be different?

 

[Embiid]

Well too bad we experienced the Fletcher Touch...where everything he touched turned to fool's gold...

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Gudas for Niskanen was a good deal, given that Holmgren had mandated a 'win now' strategy.

3rd pair D-man for 1st pair D-man, you wonder if COVID doesn't happen and Niskanen plays with Provorov for another year or two, whether Provorov's career trajectory would be different?

good lord defend chuck until the end and then some

 

[deadhead]

good lord defend chuck until the end and then some

There's a difference between strategy and tactics. Fletcher didn't set strategy, he wasn't very good at tactics.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

There's a difference between strategy and tactics. Fletcher didn't set strategy, he wasn't very good at tactics.

fletcher failed in every aspect of a GM. I truly do not understand why you cant except that.

ok mandate to win now. Maybe chuck misunderstood and though it was mandate to lose now.

 

[Embiid]

fletcher failed in every aspect of a GM. I truly do not understand why you cant except that.

ok mandate to win now. Maybe chuck misunderstood and though it was mandate to lose now.

He is "excepting" facts all the time actually...

 

[deadhead]

fletcher failed in every aspect of a GM. I truly do not understand why you cant except that.

ok mandate to win now. Maybe chuck misunderstood and though it was mandate to lose now.

Chuck took over a 90 point team, overachieved in 2017-18, underachieved in 2018-19 due to goalie implosion, but if you normalize S%, GF/GA is about even, which is an 85-90 point team. He got them to have one good season with some short-term moves, then the roof caved in.

The real problem was the "rebuild" Hextall started was half-hearted, when Mason got them to the POs in 2015-16 with a heater season (followed by a PO meltdown), Hextall paused, then made his "Schenn for JVR trade" (took Schenn's cap room and used it to sign JVR). So they never really got better than a 90 point team that made the POs in good years and collapsed in bad years. This pattern went back to 2012-13.

If Ellis and Couts are healthy, they probably remain a 90 point team, drafting #15-25, with an aging core, and the collapse is put off for 2-3 more years.
So in a sense, everything imploding is a good thing b/c it got them off the mediocrity merry-go-round.

 

[Curufinwe]

Gudas for Niskanen was a good deal, given that Holmgren had mandated a 'win now' strategy.

Holmgren didn't do that. Fletcher did.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Gudas is a fine 3rd pair defenseman. Niskanen was twice the player Gudas is.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Gudas for Niskanen was a good deal, given that Holmgren had mandated a 'win now' strategy.

3rd pair D-man for 1st pair D-man, you wonder if COVID doesn't happen and Niskanen plays with Provorov for another year or two, whether Provorov's career trajectory would be different?

Holmgren didn't mandate shit. He was so checked out that he just fired Hextall because Clarke wanted it, and hired Fletcher because Clarke wanted it. Then came out later and said "well of course I do what he says, he's like a brother to me, I trust him."