Value of: Kasperi Kapanen for a young Dman

[sansabri]

I suppose you could argue a toss-up between him and McCarron, Kap's raw upside vs. the rarity of McCarron's overall skillset but that's about it.

Lehkonen? I'd say Kap is closer to Hudon. Much rather have McCarron.

 

[4thline]

Lehkonen? I'd say Kap is closer to Hudon. Much rather have McCarron.

IMO Kap were a Habs prospect he would have beaten out Lehkonen for that spot. He's ready to slot in as rookie on a line with top-6 players and excel, he's not ready to drive a line. If it weren't for Nylander and Marner he's be in the NHL.

Hudon is not close.

 

[sansabri]

Oh, right. Kap can't make the Leafs roster, but he'd make the Habs' one

 

[Canada4Gold]

Almost every Kapanen thread on the trade board results in someone not understanding that 19 year old rookies in the AHL don't put up as many points as 20 year old year old rookies in the AHL.

Thanks for telling us he's not good, we'll gladly keep him.

Really what we need is a proven/semi-proven, RHD who's competent defensively enough to play top 4 at the NHL level. Kapanen doesn't get that by himself, 1 for 1 we're getting another Nielsen or Dermott, just let Nielsen or Dermott develop, and if we don't have another top 4 D in 3 years established for establish at that point in time

 

[The Examiner]

He's having a pretty dominant year with the Marlies so far and was great in pre-season. He turned 20 this summer too so this makes it very promising. I don't think he'll be in the AHL for long.

Due to our current needs it would make sense but it would have to really fit our D needs with good potential, not just any D.

I think he stays in the AHL for the majority of the year (sort of like Nylander last year). The Leafs have too many forwards and I think Soshnikov and Leipsic are ahead of him. The Leafs don't really need him right now. I'd rather he play top minutes with Marlies.

Of course, any trade could change everything.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Oh, right. Kap can't make the Leafs roster, but he'd make the Habs' one

Lekhonen wouldn't have made the leafs roster, we have a team mate of his from Frolunda who outscored him named Andreas Johnsson who is with the Marlies and never really had a shot to make the big club.

Leafs spots for rookies were very competitive, more guys trying to make the team than spots for them by a long shot

 

[sansabri]

Lekhonen wouldn't have made the leafs roster, we have a team mate of his from Frolunda who outscored him named Andreas Johnsson who is with the Marlies and never really had a shot to make the big club.

Leafs spots for rookies were very competitive, more guys trying to make the team than spots for them by a long shot

Outscored him when? Surely not during the playoffs.

Can you guys drop this schtick?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Outscored him when? Surely not during the playoffs.

Can you guys drop this schtick?

During the regular season (larger sample). Not trying to compete with you here, the Habs have some highly paid vets that the leafs don't so that tends to open up roster spots for younger, cheaper guys

Lekhonen is a fine prospect, just saying that Toronto is deep with prospects and that he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the leafs the way he did the habs

 

[4thline]

Oh, right. Kap can't make the Leafs roster, but he'd make the Habs' one

Yes, right. There was a clearly defined slot available for a Habs rookie to take a top 9 wing spot. There were two on the Leafs. Kapanen understandably got beaten out by Nylander and Marner. If they were Habs they too would have beaten out Lehkonen. The quality of the veteran players in the non competed spots does not matter one lick in comparing the quality of the prospects vying for them. Maybe Lehkonen would have beaten out Brown for the 4thline, but likely he'd be in the AHL too.

 

[Mitchy]

Almost every Kapanen thread on the trade board results in someone not understanding that 19 year old rookies in the AHL don't put up as many points as 20 year old year old rookies in the AHL.

Thanks for telling us he's not good, we'll gladly keep him.

Really what we need is a proven/semi-proven, RHD who's competent defensively enough to play top 4 at the NHL level. Kapanen doesn't get that by himself, 1 for 1 we're getting another Nielsen or Dermott, just let Nielsen or Dermott develop, and if we don't have another top 4 D in 3 years established for establish at that point in time

Exactly.

He is so underrated. I don't think people understand that for his age, Kapanen had a pretty good season. It seems that people think every 19 year old is going to dominate like Nylander or Rantanen in the AHL, forgetting that guys like those are extremely rare. Most prospects his age are still playing in the juniors.

He was also playing on a stacked team last year, playing lower in the lineup and didn't get much powerplay time. Now, he's a year older, playing higher in the lineup, getting more powerplay time and as a result, is playing tremendous and that's showing in the scoreboard.

Kapanen is a great prospect.

 

[Appleyard]

As much as I like Kapanen and the Flyers have a very good pool of D prospects it just does not make much sense for us...

as he would be once again in a winger log-jam. And Sanheim, Morin and Myers are not getting moved... so that leaves Friedman and Hägg... who do not have the value he does.

Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Konecny all certainly ahead. Raffl likely too... and Lindblom next year would be ahead of him.

Just not really a need... though if you have any good young centres going we could be interested!

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Toronto would be smart to trade him before he plays regularly in the NHL, Babcock isn't a fan of him and his value would decrease the longer he plays up in the show.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Toronto would be smart to trade him before he plays regularly in the NHL, Babcock isn't a fan of him and his value would decrease the longer he plays up in the show.

I think we're smart to wait until the end of his AHL season, the biggest criticism of him is that he hasn't produced big points anywhere despite his speed and talent, so now that he's finally putting up big numbers I think we're smart to wait. His value is rising already, you can see the frequency of posts regarding him has skyrocketed - lots of that is leaf fans because we're excited, but other fanbases are much more willing to talk about him in deals than 8 months ago

I haven't seen anything about Babcock not liking him either, Kapanen wasn't good and looked uninvested during his cup of coffee last year so I think Babcock played him accordingly. Seems to me that Babcock will come around if Kapanen is performing and putting in effort, especially the latter

 

[sansabri]

During the regular season (larger sample). Not trying to compete with you here, the Habs have some highly paid vets that the leafs don't so that tends to open up roster spots for younger, cheaper guys

Lekhonen is a fine prospect, just saying that Toronto is deep with prospects and that he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the leafs the way he did the habs

Larger sample, sure. Playoffs are a different beast, though. I'm not trying to compete here, either; I simply said we wouldn't be interested in moving Juulsen for Kapanen.

Yes, right. There was a clearly defined slot available for a Habs rookie to take a top 9 wing spot. There were two on the Leafs. Kapanen understandably got beaten out by Nylander and Marner. If they were Habs they too would have beaten out Lehkonen. The quality of the veteran players in the non competed spots does not matter one lick in comparing the quality of the prospects vying for them. Maybe Lehkonen would have beaten out Brown for the 4thline, but likely he'd be in the AHL too.

There was a spot for a rookie and Lehkonen won it over the others competing for it, including Andrighetto who already has NHL experience. I don't see what is the point of bringing up Nylander (who had a guaranteed spot) and Marner (a blue-chipper) into this discussion as Kapanen is nowhere near those guys in terms of skill and talent.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Larger sample, sure. Playoffs are a different beast, though. I'm not trying to compete here, either; I simply said we wouldn't be interested in moving Juulsen for Kapanen.

My response there was to when you lol'd at Kapanen making the Habs but not the Leafs, just saying that it was harder for that tier of prospect to make the Leafs this year than the Habs

That's fine on the Juulsen for Kapanen front, I'd like to hang on to Kap anyway, his value will go up like crazy if he continues to produce in the AHL - the only knock on him to date has been lack of serious production

There was a spot for a rookie and Lehkonen won it over the others competing for it, including Andrighetto who already has NHL experience. I don't see what is the point of bringing up Nylander (who had a guaranteed spot) and Marner (a blue-chipper) into this discussion as Kapanen is nowhere near those guys in terms of skill and talent.

Bringing up Marner and Nylander was to show how stiff the competition was for our rookie wing positions - guys on the Lekhonen/Johnsson/Kapanen level really never had a shot

There were also people who had Kapanen up with Nylander in their draft rankings. It's been more production and results that separates Kapanen from that tier, he's crazy talented

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2014-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings/

 

[sansabri]

My response there was to when you lol'd at Kapanen making the Habs but not the Leafs, just saying that it was harder for that tier of prospect to make the Leafs this year than the Habs

That's fine on the Juulsen for Kapanen front, I'd like to hang on to Kap anyway, his value will go up like crazy if he continues to produce in the AHL - the only knock on him to date has been lack of serious production

I don't see how it matters how tough the competition for a spot was on the Leafs. To assume that Kapanen would have won that spot because he's such a superior prospect compared to our forward prospects is a farce (not blaming this on you, but this is what the other poster insinuated).

Bringing up Marner and Nylander was to show how stiff the competition was for our rookie wing positions - guys on the Lekhonen/Johnsson/Kapanen level really never had a shot

There were also people who had Kapanen up with Nylander in their draft rankings. It's been more production and results that separates Kapanen from that tier, he's crazy talented

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2014-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings/

Kapanen saw a drop when players like Aho, Laine, Puljujarvi and Juolevi all easily passed him. Those players dominated the Liiga/WJC/OHL when they were all 18 and under and are now in the NHL (except for Juolevi).

Pre-draft rankings don't matter anymore. Some progressed, some regressed. Kapanen is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Mashed Potatoes]

Typical leaf fans. We shouldn't trade him now that his value is a low as it is. I think Mckoewn + a 3rd is his value to most teams right now and we should let him develope instead

 

[Randy Randerson]

I don't see how it matters how tough the competition for a spot was on the Leafs. To assume that Kapanen would have won that spot because he's such a superior prospect compared to our forward prospects is a farce (not blaming this on you, but this is what the other poster insinuated).

I think 4thline was trying to say that Kapanen would be near the top of your forward prospect rankings, and I do see the same, not that he's superior to Lekhonen/Scherbak just that he's similar. I don't think he meant it the way that you interpreted it

And being that Lekhonen made the big club, I think Kapanen would have had a real opportunity as well

McCarron is entirely different because of the size/nastiness

Kapanen saw a drop when players like Aho, Laine, Puljujarvi and Juolevi all easily passed him. Those players dominated the Liiga/WJC/OHL when they were all 18 and under and are now in the NHL (except for Juolevi).

Pre-draft rankings don't matter anymore. Some progressed, some regressed. Kapanen is somewhere in the middle.

I don't think Kapanen was really ever compared to those guys, they're all from subsequent drafts to his and 3 of them were top 10 picks, the other put up historically good numbers after his draft in another pro league. Kapanen was playing in the AHL when those guys really broke out in Finland

All I meant by that is I don't think it's skill or talent that separates Kapanen from being a blue chip prospect, he's been inconsistent and hasn't produced big numbers in any league since his draft. His raw talent had many people believing he was worth of a top-15 pick

And I'm not trying to say that the draft rankings matter any more as to what Kapanen will be, though I do think they will have an affect on his trade value if he continues to produce, he'll be viewed as having pedigree

 

[BusQuets]

Kapanen definitely has more potential than Lehkonen. Lehkonen might be better right now though.

 

[WTFMAN99]

9 goals and 25 points in 44 AHL games is not performing well IMO. He didn't exactly light it up in Europe either. He's got a lot of potential. A bit more than Mckeown which is why I proposed adding the third rounder.

My proposal was unproven for unproven but Leafs fans apparently want a proven young top four defenseman for an unproven and underperforming forward prospect. I don't think that's reasonable.

Kapanen didn't get much opportunity on a crazy deep Marlies team last year, and many of the guys blocking him have graduated to open up better minutes this year

I see why teams wouldn't want to pay a premium for someone who hasn't put up big numbers, but his opportunity was limited to be able to do so as well - sort of like a KHL rookie where a .5ppg is exemplary

Leafs are wise to hold on to Kapanen, if he puts up big numbers this year his value goes way back up IMO. He does also look like he can play a depth NHL role if he doesn't pan out, willing to work in the dirty areas and has wheels, so the floor is pretty high with him (which was not the draft day scouting report)

Love the manipulation of the numbers...how dare you bring facts into this Randy

Just for the record - when did I say I expected a top 4 NHL defenseman for Kapanen? Or are you looking to build a strawman argument?

 

[4thline]

There was a spot for a rookie and Lehkonen won it over the others competing for it, including Andrighetto who already has NHL experience. I don't see what is the point of bringing up Nylander (who had a guaranteed spot) and Marner (a blue-chipper) into this discussion as Kapanen is nowhere near those guys in terms of skill and talent.

I don't see how it matters how tough the competition for a spot was on the Leafs. To assume that Kapanen would have won that spot because he's such a superior prospect compared to our forward prospects is a farce (not blaming this on you, but this is what the other poster insinuated).

Exactly. The point was that your "hurr make the habs but not make the laffs" incredulity was baseless. Had Kap been a Hab in camp he would have been up for that same rookie wing spot as Lehkonen. I think we would have beaten him. Maybe he wouldn't have. but in any case the habs being a better team outside of the contested roster spot has no bearing an evaluating the players vieing for it.

I have zero doubt that were there positions flipped that Lehkonen would be on the Mariles and Kap would be making noise in the NHL, doing just as well if not better than Lehk is now while a year younger. If you have a chance you should see a Marlies game. He's taken a massive step this year, the toolbox may be finally catching up to the world class tools.

 

[Apotheosis]

Honestly, Kapanen is the one I really want to keep besides Timashov. Kapanen has the raw tools to be a legitimate first line sniping winger. You can't just magically teach his ridiculous speed and great wrist shot. Really hoping in the future we see Timashov - Nylander - Kapanen on the second line for the Euro link up. That kind of break out speed would be insane considering we could ice that on our second line.

 

[Seedling]

Seems like the type of deal Chicago would seek out.

 

[howkie]

Lekhonen wouldn't have made the leafs roster, we have a team mate of his from Frolunda who outscored him named Andreas Johnsson who is with the Marlies and never really had a shot to make the big club.

Leafs spots for rookies were very competitive, more guys trying to make the team than spots for them by a long shot

I watched frölunda alot last year, lehk > johnson. In the playoff johnson struggled creating scoring chances but was solid in the D-zone. I love when people have no clue...

 

[Chan790]

Who cares what the "value" of Kapanen is? We'd be stupid to trade him.

STAY THE COURSE......PLAY THE KIDS.......IT'S OKAY TO LOSE.......KEEP YOUR ASSETS........DRAFT.......

Criminy hell, I really am starting to think Leafs fans do not grasp the concept that moving prospects or youth at positions of depth for prospects or youth at positions of need...is not deviating from the course or abandoning the rebuild.

It is integrally part of the rebuild...advice like this is why Edmonton isn't improving. They never actually resolve their roster holes.