Player Discussion K'Andre Miller

[QJL]

Yes, Miller is very good and only getting better. But 35 points isn't enough to move the needle.

Contracts, particularly RFA contracts, are based on comparables. What can Miller's agent use to argue that his client deserves more than what Dobson got?

Mattias Samuelsson

7 x 4.3m

54 NHL games

10 NHL points

0 NHL goals

In all seriousness, Jonas Brodin is probably a good comparable. The guy got 6 x 4.2m in 2015 after never topping 19 points. A 2023 equivalent would be something like 6 x 6m, and Miller is going to have more offensive production than that.

Somehow people are under the impression that points = dollars for defenseman. There are several examples where that isn’t the case.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

love thsi kid

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Mattias Samuelsson

7 x 4.3m

54 NHL games

10 NHL points

0 NHL goals

In all seriousness, Jonas Brodin is probably a good comparable. The guy got 4.2m x 6 years in 2015 after never topping 19 points. A 2023 equivalent would be something like 6 x 6m, and Miller is going to have more offensive production than that.

Somehow people are under the impression that points = dollars for defenseman. There are several examples where that isn’t the case.

I'd expect something similar to McAvoy's 2nd deal (not the extension he just signed) for Miller.

The Samuelsson deal kind of muddies the waters a bit though. He f***ing sucks.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

if you had the option today between miller or dobson which player are you taking?

Dobson is as vanilla as they come. Plus he looks like a dork. $w@gdaddy Miller AINEFC

 

[GAGLine]

Mattias Samuelsson

7 x 4.3m

54 NHL games

10 NHL points

0 NHL goals

In all seriousness, Jonas Brodin is probably a good comparable. The guy got 6 x 4.2m in 2015 after never topping 19 points. A 2023 equivalent would be something like 6 x 6m, and Miller is going to have more offensive production than that.

Somehow people are under the impression that points = dollars for defenseman. There are several examples where that isn’t the case.

Dmen who put up points consistently make more money than those who don't.

What do you think Miller will get on a 2 year deal? Who is the comparable player?

 

[duhmetreE]

3 x 3.5M for KAM would be amazing. Maybe slightly more than Lindgrens

 

[bhamill]

player A last year
29 5v5 points
46.2 cf%
-3

player B last year
19 5v5 points
50.1 cf%
+23

one player was matched up against the other team's best lines, one player was sheltered moreso.

then mix in the eye test and i think it becomes easy. one puts up 22pp points and the other isnt on the pp

one player had 54.9mins of shorthanded ice time the other had 125.6mins shorthanded time.

I take miller 10/10


right so do you take a toery krug or a guy that could be a chara without the fighting?

I think that it isnt even that close personally. If I want the guy who puts up points it's dobson, but if I want to win games I take miller 10/10

I would take Miller 10/10 as well, personally, but I'm not sure that overcomes the offensive stats for this next contract. Not saying its fair, just saying it is what it is.

 

[Machinehead]

Listen, HEDMAN is a very high bar, but Miller is on a way longer development curve than him.
Hedman has probably been a DMan his entire hockey life and started playing pro at 17.
Miller has been a Dman for what 6 or 7 years? And turned pro at 20.
It's hard to compare Miller's curve to ANY current NHLer because converting to D so late is pretty rare, and it's rarer still for someone who did it to be an NHL DMan. I honestly think we have to wait for him to actually plateau before we know what he is. He's an unusual case.

I just think we're underestimating how hard it is to win a Norris and how few guys actually get there.

To date, every single eligible player with more than one Norris is in the Hall of Fame and Keith is a shoo-in.

You always take the field against anybody winning a Norris.

 

[GAGLine]

player A last year
29 5v5 points
46.2 cf%
-3

player B last year
19 5v5 points
50.1 cf%
+23

one player was matched up against the other team's best lines, one player was sheltered moreso.

It's funny that you use CF% and +/- to make this argument. Isn't +/- the worst stat ever according to advanced stat geeks?

All this does is show that they are close in value, like I said. One is better offensively while the other is better defensively. Even if you want to argue that Miller is worth more, how much more? Put a number on it. What do YOU think he gets on a 2 or 3 year deal?

 

[bleedblue94]

Dmen who put up points consistently make more money than those who don't.

What do you think Miller will get on a 2 year deal? Who is the comparable player?

that trend is shifting, if you need to be sheltered when you arent on the pp ice you are viewed more as a specialist and paid like one.

torey krug was an elite offensive d man and even as a ufa he got 6.5aav as a ufa and that was a struggle for him.

if you can put up points AND play against other team's top lines then you are an elite player. key is/was doing the latter in his second season and has shown he has offense in his game. it isnt his fault that fox and jones are going to own the pp time although it does help from a negotiating side. you could put key onto pp1 in foxes spot and he would get dobson's 22 ppp without much of an issue, although dobson cant hold key's jock in 5v5 play. how many d men in this league have the legitimate tools to skate with and neutralize players like mcd and mackinnon, maybe 5 guys total? key has the specific skill set needed to be one of those guys, that is incredibly rare.

my comment was never about a 2 year deal, it was specifically aimed at the people clamoring for drury to sign him to a 4x8 deal or whatever craziness was suggested. nyr will probably just try to get him to take a 1x3 after this year to massage the cap and then try to negotiate a deal contract with him in the summer of 24. the risk with all of that is if his offense comes together then youre paying for another top pairing d man

It's funny that you use CF% and +/- to make this argument. Isn't +/- the worst stat ever according to advanced stat geeks?

All this does is show that they are close in value, like I said. One is better offensively while the other is better defensively. Even if you want to argue that Miller is worth more, how much more? Put a number on it. What do YOU think he gets on a 2 or 3 year deal?

i used both to show that by either measure it is the same result. it is so that the stats dont appear to be cherrypicked. how can you criticize information supporting my stance that comes from both the old guard of stats and the newer aged fancy stats? that is a weird position to take.

 

[QJL]

Dmen who put up points consistently make more money than those who don't.

What do you think Miller will get on a 2 year deal? Who is the comparable player?

There isn’t a comparable on a 2 year deal.

When it comes to bridge deals, there aren’t 6’5 215 pound superathletes who shut down the best players in the league, munching 25 minutes a night. The players that meet that description are signed long term.

Those who think Miller is going to settle for 3M x 2 years are out to lunch. Even if we use point totals and force that through with our RFA leverage, it’s going to damage our relationship with a player who is blatantly and obviously worth so much more. We are asking this guy to play a role for us. He could be a more significant producer, but that’s not what we need. I think devaluing a player like him in a contract negotiation could bring serious long term consequences.

The NHL is getting smarter. Point production will not be the primary barometer for a player like him. It shouldn’t be.

 

[bhamill]

I just think we're underestimating how hard it is to win a Norris and how few guys actually get there.

To date, every single eligible player with more than one Norris is in the Hall of Fame and Keith is a shoo-in.

You always take the field against anybody winning a Norris.

Ah, yeah I wasn't talking about him actually winning the Norris, just saying it's hard to judge just how good/great he can end up being.

 

[GAGLine]

that trend is shifting, if you need to be sheltered when you arent on the pp ice you are viewed more as a specialist and paid like one.

torey krug was an elite offensive d man and even as a ufa he got 6.5aav as a ufa and that was a struggle for him.

Quinn Hughes got 7.85 mil for 6 years because he puts up points. Is he any better defensively than Krug?

if you can put up points AND play against other team's top lines then you are an elite player. key is/was doing the latter in his second season and has shown he has offense in his game.

Except K'Andre hasn't put up offense. 20 points in 80 games is nothing. Marc Staal had 52 points in his first 3 years (244 games). Girardi had 56 points in his first 3 years (198 games). Miller has 33 points in 136 games.

Does he have the potential to put up more offense? Absolutely. But until he actually does it, he isn't going to get paid for it.

i used both to show that by either measure it is the same result. it is so that the stats dont appear to be cherrypicked. how can you criticize information supporting my stance that comes from both the old guard of stats and the newer aged fancy stats? that is a weird position to take.

The result is that one is better offensively and the other is better defensively. That doesn't prove that one is worth significantly more than the other.

But again I ask, what do you think Miller gets on a 2 year or 3 year deal?

Those who think Miller is going to settle for 3M x 2 years are out to lunch.

Who is saying that?

 

[bleedblue94]

Quinn Hughes got 7.85 mil for 6 years because he puts up points. Is he any better defensively than Krug?


Except K'Andre hasn't put up offense. 20 points in 80 games is nothing. Marc Staal had 52 points in his first 3 years (244 games). Girardi had 56 points in his first 3 years (198 games). Miller has 33 points in 136 games.

Does he have the potential to put up more offense? Absolutely. But until he actually does it, he isn't going to get paid for it.



The result is that one is better offensively and the other is better defensively. That doesn't prove that one is worth significantly more than the other.

But again I ask, what do you think Miller gets on a 2 year or 3 year deal?

quin hughes cap percentage this year is 9.5

krugs was 7.9 when he signed

hughes is a better player and there is a clear and obvious cap bump coming that everyone knows about, and even yet many people felt hughes got overpaid on that contract.

as for contract I already answered that but here you are again, nyr probably cant afford anything more than a 1 year deal right now:

my comment was never about a 2 year deal, it was specifically aimed at the people clamoring for drury to sign him to a 4x8 deal or whatever craziness was suggested. nyr will probably just try to get him to take a 1x3 after this year to massage the cap and then try to negotiate a deal contract with him in the summer of 24. the risk with all of that is if his offense comes together then youre paying for another top pairing d man

 

[QJL]

Quinn Hughes got 7.85 mil for 6 years because he puts up points. Is he any better defensively than Krug?


Except K'Andre hasn't put up offense. 20 points in 80 games is nothing. Marc Staal had 52 points in his first 3 years (244 games). Girardi had 56 points in his first 3 years (198 games). Miller has 33 points in 136 games.

Does he have the potential to put up more offense? Absolutely. But until he actually does it, he isn't going to get paid for it.



The result is that one is better offensively and the other is better defensively. That doesn't prove that one is worth significantly more than the other.

But again I ask, what do you think Miller gets on a 2 year or 3 year deal?


Who is saying that?

Yes, Hughes is better than Krug defensively. Not close really.

Miller at $3M x 2 years has been the working average of projections from folks on this forum all summer.

Lindgren got $3M x 3 years. If you’re going by point production, he’s your comparable. Obviously Miller is a better player.

 

[GAGLine]

my comment was never about a 2 year deal, it was specifically aimed at the people clamoring for drury to sign him to a 4x8 deal or whatever craziness was suggested. nyr will probably just try to get him to take a 1x3 after this year

Okay. I'm not sure why we are arguing then. I've never once suggested he would get 4 x 8 or anything close to it. I've consistently said that he would get a contract similar to what Dobson got. If you think 1 x 3 is possible, or close to possible, then 2 x 4 or 3 x 4 is reasonable.

 

[GAGLine]

Yes, Hughes is better than Krug defensively. Not close really.

Miller at $3M x 2 years has been the working average of projections from folks on this forum all summer.

Lindgren got $3M x 3 years. If you’re going by point production, he’s your comparable. Obviously Miller is a better player.

I don't know who those people are, but they aren't me. I've used Lindgren (and Dobson) as comparables and suggested that Miller will be closer to what Dobson got than Lindgren.

My argument is against those who think Miller will get significantly more than what Dobson got. I still haven't heard any convincing reasons as to why that would be so.

 

[DuneGoon84]

This kid has potential to be top5 dman. His stride, reach, puck handling etc. Man he has all the tools. We are lucky to have fox and Miller. Wow

 

[Off Sides]

McAvoy, 32 and 28 point seasons leading up to his 2nd contract

6.01%, at 83.5M = ~5M per season on a 3 year.

Rangers would be better off going 2 years versus 3, to leave Miller with 2 RFA year left after the bridge.

(which Boston did with McAvoy, as he had only 2 pro seasons accumulated at point of extension, so a 3 year left him with 2 RFA years left, Miller will have 3 pro seasons already at his extension point)

If Miller gets ~30 points, between 4M (Dobson) and 5M (McAvoy) on a 2 or 3 year would be my guess.

 

[bleedblue94]

Okay. I'm not sure why we are arguing then. I've never once suggested he would get 4 x 8 or anything close to it. I've consistently said that he would get a contract similar to what Dobson got. If you think 1 x 3 is possible, or close to possible, then 2 x 4 or 3 x 4 is reasonable.

there is a huge difference between 1x3 and 2x4 (which we cant afford) and 4x4 (which we cant afford and miller isnt doing with the cap jump coming).

we are arguing bc you replied to my post where I said "He's not getting 9mil or anything like that but people on here have been suggesting signing him to like 4m x 8 and stuff like that which is absurd." and you said dobson at 3x4 is comparable which is kind of irrelevant bc neither miller nor the team is doing that contract. the team cant afford 4m next year and miller isnt committing to only 4m into the cap jump years, let alone that i think miller is just a better player than dobson for a winning team, oh and that you tried to dimiss the info i provided to backup that opinion and criticized me for offering that both the outdate +- and the cf% both demonstarted that dobson cant hold miller's jock at 5v5 even when he was playing in trotz's defense only system while miller played in gallants general mess of a 5v5 system.

4m x 3 just isnt realistic for this team and player. his only way to get any term this summer is if you see a significant salary going out somewhere else with minimal cap coming back in which is unlikely to say the least

I am good moving on if you are...

McAvoy, 32 and 28 point seasons leading up to his 2nd contract

6.01%, at 83.5M = ~5M per season on a 3 year.

Rangers would be better off going 2 years versus 3, to leave Miller with 2 RFA year left after the bridge.

(which Boston did with McAvoy, as he had only 2 pro seasons accumulated at point of extension, so a 3 year left him with 2 RFA years left, Miller will have 3 pro seasons already at his extension point)

If Miller gets ~30 points, between 4M (Dobson) and 5M (McAvoy) on a 2 or 3 year would be my guess.

rangers need to go 1 year this summer to survive the crunch next year and then TRY to lock miller in during the summer of 24 once the cap starts going up and pray his offensive numbers dont boom before they can afford a contract with term

 

[nyr2k2]

I'm gonna be tooting my own horn (which I assume is a penis thing) about K'Andre for a long, long time. You could see this kid was going to be special from his first few games at Wisconsin.

 

[RangerBoy]

 

[IceColdOx]

We gotta pay the man. He's really grown the last two seasons.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I would take Miller 10/10 as well, personally, but I'm not sure that overcomes the offensive stats for this next contract. Not saying its fair, just saying it is what it is.

2X4M, 3 X 4.6-5...I think they'll McDonagh him..

 

[bl02]

I'm gonna check this thread everyday hoping breaking news that we extended him. He is the surest of sure bets on this team. Have more confidence in him than any of our young talented kids of being a legit star. And he is a monster of a dman who can skate and you can't teach that. Can we get him for 4 million X 3 years? then break the bank for him because he's just gonna get better.