Kadri player discssion thread.

[Jack Bauer]

All 3? I don't think so.

Worded for a reason.

Since camp opened.

Clearly since that time 1 of the 3 has screwed up.

Doesn't mean the others will, but new starts sometimes don't remove all habits was the point I was making with Kassian's latest incident in mind.

 

[KGL]

The Bozak bashing is disgusting.

Guy was undrafted and works his ass off.

His effort (or lack thereof) on the backcheck would contradict this assessment.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

23 goals and 49 points as an undrafted UFA while winning more then 50% of his faceoffs....yeah he's awful.

There's certainly much worse then him. Bozak is the least of our worries, honestly. He's an ideal top 9 forward who can play in the middle. Not exactly easy to find in the NHL.

See he has been carried by Kessel for years and now that's over. He played with Kessel 5 years not ONCE did he crack 50 points, anything he did get he got off the back of Kessel, Kessel is gone now Bozak will get exposed as terrible.

 

[Semantics]

23 goals and 49 points as an undrafted UFA while winning more then 50% of his faceoffs....yeah he's awful.

There's certainly much worse then him. Bozak is the least of our worries, honestly. He's an ideal top 9 forward who can play in the middle. Not exactly easy to find in the NHL.

Joffrey Lupul was a PPG player with Kessel. Boasting about how Bozak is not even 2/3 the player Lupul is doesn't exactly say much about him.

 

[Jack Bauer]

That's news to me.

All I've seen is a guy who shies away from going into the corners and battling for pucks, who is lazy on at backchecking, and who doesn't work to keep his man tied up in defensive zone coverage.

And reportedly he was usually one of the first two players off the ice after practice along with his bud Kessel.

Not buying this hard worker stuff at all.

And I don't buy that a 50 point forward who can win faceoffs is completely useless as a hockey player with no value to anyone.

The character assassination that happens here is disgusting. Who leaves practice 3rd or 4th? Seriously that's what we're now criticizing players for?

 

[KGL]

And I don't buy that a 50 point forward who can win faceoffs is completely useless as a hockey player with no value to anyone.

The character assassination that happens here is disgusting. Who leaves practice 3rd or 4th? Seriously that's what we're now criticizing players for?

50 point forward? I thought we were talking about Bozak, who has never hit 50 points...despite playing with an elite winger his entire career.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Joffrey Lupul was a PPG player with Kessel. Boasting about how Bozak is not even 2/3 the player Lupul is doesn't exactly say much about him.

Who mentioned Lupul?

 

[Semantics]

He's playing with JVR too, a legitimate top 6 winger and maybe even a top liner depending on who you ask. JVR has 61 and 56 points the last two seasons, no excuses for Kadri.

If JVR is a top liner and Kadri isn't, then shouldn't JVR be the one who carries the line? I can see that people are already setting up the scapegoat to be Kadri.

JVR gets overrated big time around here. It's a shame we couldn't trade him for an overpayment this off-season. Remember, Lupul was a PPG player with Kessel. JVR was an 0.8 PPG player with him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if JVR regresses to the 20 goal/40 point player he was in Philadelphia.

 

[Semantics]

And I don't buy that a 50 point forward who can win faceoffs is completely useless as a hockey player with no value to anyone.

Nice straw man.

I never said he's completely useless, just that the characterization of him as a hard-working player is off the mark. There are a lot of players on the Leafs who work harder than him.

As to Bozak's usefulness, I think he could be a useful 3rd line player who can slot into the top six when injury hits, but he needs to improve his attention to detail without the puck. I think Babcock can help with that.

 

[Jack Bauer]

50 point forward? I thought we were talking about Bozak, who has never hit 50 points...despite playing with an elite winger his entire career.

Seriously? We're splitting hairs over 1 point now?

You can save those comments, i'm not getting into a debate over how a player with 186 GP and 126 points over 3 seasons in a 50 point forward in the NHL.

 

[FreeBird]

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs-coach-mike-babcock-gives-nazem-kadri-chance-to-shine-on-the-teams-top-line

Mathews is in the Bag

 

[Semantics]

Who mentioned Lupul?

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē

noun

a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

 

[KGL]

Seriously? We're splitting hairs over 1 point now?

You can save those comments, i'm not getting into a debate over how a player with 186 GP and 126 points over 3 seasons in a 50 point forward in the NHL.

That's fine, because he's not and the numbers are black and white.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Nice straw man.

I never said he's completely useless, just that the characterization of him as a hard-working player is off the mark. There are a lot of players on the Leafs who work harder than him.

As to Bozak's usefulness, I think he could be a useful 3rd line player who can slot into the top six when injury hits, but he needs to improve his attention to detail without the puck. I think Babcock can help with that.

I agree, but that spot in the top 6 opening up and going to Bozak isn't Bozak's fault. Of course it's over his head skill wise, but it doesn't change the fact that players like that have value.

So many players who have under performed or been injury prone, honestly Bozak is the least of my worries and can be on my team any day because he can play a role anywhere in a lineup and doesn't complain about his role.

 

[Gary Nylund]

They're hockey players, they're all over paid.

In terms of 'market value' I don't see Bozak @ 4.2 at this crazy unheard of amount. It may be slightly above market value, which is where almost all players who hit UFA status reach.

I also think Kadri's earned and lost the right to play the role so many times that Bozak pretty much being a model citizen gets overlooked because of the relationship with Kessel.

Bozak never asked or was signed to be the #1 C....it's just where he ended up because we literally had nobody better suited for the job.

Hell we still may not if Kadri can't handle it. But I think Kadri having a Bozak in front of him allowed him to make those mistakes and come back stronger from them because if Kadri makes those mistakes as the #1 C he's already moved at half the price and we're down another asset.

That's a cop-out. If that's the best you can do, just give it up.

23 goals and 49 points as an undrafted UFA while winning more then 50% of his faceoffs....yeah he's awful.

There's certainly much worse then him. Bozak is the least of our worries, honestly. He's an ideal top 9 forward who can play in the middle. Not exactly easy to find in the NHL.

Ah his point totals ... see the post below.

See he has been carried by Kessel for years and now that's over. He played with Kessel 5 years not ONCE did he crack 50 points, anything he did get he got off the back of Kessel, Kessel is gone now Bozak will get exposed as terrible.

And I don't buy that a 50 point forward who can win faceoffs is completely useless as a hockey player with no value to anyone.

The character assassination that happens here is disgusting. Who leaves practice 3rd or 4th? Seriously that's what we're now criticizing players for?

Technical point - Bozak has never hit 50 points. But if you really want to harp on how many points he scores, how many points do you think he will score this year?

And yes, I expect you to dodge this because it's obvious even to you that without Kessel, his point totals are likely to plummet big-time.

If JVR is a top liner and Kadri isn't, then shouldn't JVR be the one who carries the line? I can see that people are already setting up the scapegoat to be Kadri.

JVR gets overrated big time around here. It's a shame we couldn't trade him for an overpayment this off-season. Remember, Lupul was a PPG player with Kessel. JVR was an 0.8 PPG player with him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if JVR regresses to the 20 goal/40 point player he was in Philadelphia.

I can see it as well. People here constantly crap all over Kadri yet as far as I can tell, JVR hasn't accomplished any more than Kadri in his career. He was a 2nd overall pick yet he hardly gets any criticism at all.

 

[Jack Bauer]

That's fine, because he's not and the numbers are black and white.

Based on 82 games? Ok. Averages say differently.

Do we ignore averages in place of a goal because a player finishes 1 point away from a goal? That seems pretty...petty.

God knows if it was Marner or Kadri someone would use the same stats to call them a 50 point player and nobody would complain about it.

 

[KGL]

Based on 82 games? Ok. Averages say differently.

Do we ignore averages in place of a goal because a player finishes 1 point away from a goal? That seems pretty...petty.

God knows if it was Marner or Kadri someone would use the same stats to call them a 50 point player and nobody would complain about it.

Are you seriously arguing this?
He has never hit 50 points. Fact. Therefore he is not a 50 point player. Fact. No averages, no bending the numbers to fit a narrative. He has never (and I'd be willing to bet will never) been a 50 point player.

As for Kadri, he actually has hit 50 points in his career.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree, but that spot in the top 6 opening up and going to Bozak isn't Bozak's fault. Of course it's over his head skill wise, but it doesn't change the fact that players like that have value.

So many players who have under performed or been injury prone, honestly Bozak is the least of my worries and can be on my team any day because he can play a role anywhere in a lineup and doesn't complain about his role.

No offence but if you pick players for your team because "they don't complain", your team will suck.

Having said that, Bozak doesn't complain, OK. Neither does anyone else so what else have you got?

What the hell would he complain about anyway? The guy lucked out to play with Kessel, riding his coattails he become a multi-millionaire. If there's one guy on the team who should have no complaints it's Bozak.

 

[Jack Bauer]

That's a cop-out. If that's the best you can do, just give it up.



Ah his point totals ... see the post below.







Technical point - Bozak has never hit 50 points. But if you really want to harp on how many points he scores, how many points do you think he will score this year?

And yes, I expect you to dodge this because it's obvious even to you that without Kessel, his point totals are likely to plummet big-time.



I can see it as well. People here constantly crap all over Kadri yet as far as I can tell, JVR hasn't accomplished any more than Kadri in his career. He was a 2nd overall pick yet he hardly gets any criticism at all.

Of course his totals should fall without Kessel. How much so? Well that's to be seen. But to compare any Leaf stats under a Babcock style to the run and gun of the past will be foolish...play away from the puck will be as important as anything especially over the first 8 weeks or so as the team adjusts to the system.

I still don't see why that's warrant to people bashing him as some have admitted to doing since I posted my 1st comment. He's done nothing personally to deserve that yet Kadri actually has and gets a free pass from many because of his talent.

I think that's part of the 'protecting players' that Babcock and Shanahan are looking for. It's not a players fault that the player was the best player for a job even though based on NHL standards he's sub par for that job.

All I see is people defending the right to throw an undrafted UFA who has drastically over achieved based on any expectation completely under the bus. I refuse to do that, and realize we'd be even worse off without his play the last 3 years.

 

[TheProspector]

It's not Bozak's fault that the coach used him more than almost any other NHL forward.

Use him on the third line, and he'll make everyone happy. No, he's not an amazing defensive forward (though his FO are good, obviously), but, net net, he's a pretty strong possession player. He's probably a 40 point forward in that role, and will end up with a much higher +/- because his opposition will be inferior.

Assuming he can put up about 2 points per 60 minutes, which is above last season, but well below the 2013-14 value of 2.42:

(15min ATOI/60) * 2 p/60 * 82 gp = 41 points

This is assuming that Babcock runs 3 scoring lines.

Combined with his faceoff prowess, I can't imagine why anyone would complain about Bozak there. Sure, complain that a 3rd liner is your 1st line C -- but when he's not, Bozak no longer looks like your problem. His downside case is probably 36 points ((15/60) * 1.75 * 82), and he definitely would be overpaid and disappointing there... but if you pull back his ATOI and shelter him in a bit, I doubt he'll regress so hard.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Are you seriously arguing this?
He has never hit 50 points. Fact. Therefore he is not a 50 point player. Fact. No averages, no bending the numbers to fit a narrative. He has never (and I'd be willing to bet will never) been a 50 point player.

As for Kadri, he actually has hit 50 points in his career.

Am I arguing that players are evaluated with averages as well as round numbers and calling a 49 point player a 50 point player isn't far fetched?

I'd call stupidity on the argument from both sides on that one. 49 and 50....are irrelevant in terms of the difference in the grand scheme of things. I'll settle for 49 point player, but that's even dumber then calling a 49 point player a 50 point player if you ask me.

 

[p.l.f.]

Tyler Prozak needs to go

 

[Jack Bauer]

No offence but if you pick players for your team because "they don't complain", your team will suck.

Having said that, Bozak doesn't complain, OK. Neither does anyone else so what else have you got?

What the hell would he complain about anyway? The guy lucked out to play with Kessel, riding his coattails he become a multi-millionaire. If there's one guy on the team who should have no complaints it's Bozak.

The reason I say he 'didnt complain' is because Kadri was a bit more productive but also was a headache in the room for a part of the year.

If Bozak, for example, was suspended like Kadri was...this forum would blow up.

 

[KGL]

All I see is people defending the right to throw an undrafted UFA who has drastically over achieved based on any expectation completely under the bus. I refuse to do that, and realize we'd be even worse off without his play the last 3 years.

Would we be even worse? I'm not sure I can confidently say that. If we didn't have Bozak, then Kessel and JVR would likely have been playing with a better centre. Bozak has always been put into a position that he simply isn't cut out for. If he wasn't around it's very possible that Kadri would've gotten to play between Kessel and JVR sooner, who is a much better centre. Not to mention Bozak is overpaid, that $4.2M could be better used if we didn't have Bozak.

Now I'm not saying with certainty we would have been better off without him but I don't think I can say with certainly that we would have been worse without him either. He's almost a third line player getting paid like he's a second and getting played like he's a first, that's easily replaceable.

 

[Jack Bauer]

It's not Bozak's fault that the coach used him more than almost any other NHL forward.

Use him on the third line, and he'll make everyone happy. No, he's not an amazing defensive forward (though his FO are good, obviously), but, net net, he's a pretty strong possession player. He's probably a 40 point forward in that role, and will end up with a much higher +/- because his opposition will be inferior.

Assuming he can put up about 2 points per 60 minutes, which is above last season, but well below the 2013-14 value of 2.42:

(15min ATOI/60) * 2 p/60 * 82 gp = 41 points

This is assuming that Babcock runs 3 scoring lines.

Combined with his faceoff prowess, I can't imagine why anyone would complain about Bozak there. Sure, complain that a 3rd liner is your 1st line C -- but when he's not, Bozak no longer looks like your problem.

Agreed. Excellent post.

I still believe that there's no need of bashing our own. Especially when overall effort and desire can't really be questioned and some aspects of the game are overlooked such as his faceoff play actually being strong when compared to our other centers.

If Kadri could pickup some faceoff tricks from Bozak he'd be an even better player for it. His faceoff ability right now means we have a #2 C as our #1 C. Bozak was always a #3 C so I guess that's an upgrade, but Bozak knew his role and played it well....whether Kadri can is going to be an interesting thing to watch over the first 50-60 games.