Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[haohmaru]

Don’t disclose the injury.

Do disclose the recovery timeframe.

Boom.

 

[NYR Viper]

A 40 point 2-way winger who is 23 is still a very valuable asset. Especially one who has possession numbers he does. When he comes back he should be a primary PKer.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

40 points last year, on pace for 12 points this year.

But yeah. A 50-point, Selke-caliber forward. Right. I do love that you left the word "Selke" out of this reply, at least.

Also, the only pipe involved here is just filled with Grade-A hopium at this point.

I can't fathom how much we'd be laughing at Devils fans for their hope & cope if Kakko was theirs.

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Well he said Selke caliber defense, which you conveniently left out to support your word salad

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Lol but you're harsh. He's been good defensively.

I don't think that calling him a solid 2nd/3rd liner is "harsh" at all. How many forwards on pace for 12 points in their 5th season would even be considered that?

If anything, I'm probably being too friendly to him just since he's a Ranger.

A 40 point 2-way winger who is 23 is still a very valuable asset. Especially one who has possession numbers he does. When he comes back he should be a primary PKer.

He's had ONE single 40 point season and he's on pace for 12 points this year.

Let's hold off on calling him a "40-point 2-way winger" until he can come close to replicating that.

The hopium some people still have for the guy is just silly. We need to look to reality at some point.

 

[JCProdigy]

A 40 point 2-way winger who is 23 is still a very valuable asset. Especially one who has possession numbers he does. When he comes back he should be a primary PKer.

and with a 2.4M qualifying offer for next year. Objectively, there is no reason to dump him until he's not cost-controlled anymore.

...of course, many are up in their feelings, disappointed a 2OA pick isn't elite, so they want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Well he said Selke caliber defense, which you conveniently left out to support your word salad

What the hell do you think a Selke-caliber forward is? Plenty of players have won in the 50-60 point range. If he has SELKE-caliber defense and puts up 50-60 points, he's a SELKE-CALIBER FORWARD. All it would take would be one season in the high 50s or 60s and he'd win.

Did you even bother to look up past Selke winners or were you just enjoying speaking out of your ass?

Look up O'Reilly's career. He won the Selke the year he put up a bit more points than normal. If Kakko's defense was "Selke-caliber" and he was putting up 50+ points, he'd 100% be considered an elite player and a Selke-caliber forward.

The idea that I even have to defend this position to someone like you is laughable, but go on sport.

BTW, the best defensive forward of all time, Patrice Bergeron, had numerous 50-point seasons when he won the Selke.

Miss me with this "BUT HE DIDN'T SAY SELKE CALIBER HE SAID SELKE DEFENSE HURR DURR" bullshit.

and with a 2.4M qualifying offer for next year. Objectively, there is no reason to dump him until he's not cost-controlled anymore.

...of course, many are up in their feelings, disappointed a 2OA pick isn't elite, so they want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Who said anything about getting rid of him? I think he's a fine 2nd/3rd liner. Are you thinking me not thinking he's elite means I want to get rid of him?

Why would I move the guy when his value is dogshit, anyway?

 

[JCProdigy]

Who said anything about getting rid of him? I think he's a fine 2nd/3rd liner. Are you thinking me not thinking he's elite means I want to get rid of him?

Why would I move the guy when his value is dogshit, anyway?

First, did I say you specifically wanted to get rid of him?!?! Show me where please. There are definitely those who have posted some god awful proposals to get rid of him this year.

Second, in response to @NYR Viper it seems you chastise him for coming to a conclusion based on one season yet you seem to be fine with putting a lot of stock into, checks notes, 20 games played.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

First, did I say you specifically wanted to get rid of him?!?! Show me where please. There are definitely those who have posted some god awful proposals to get rid of him this year.

Second, in response to @NYR Viper it seems you chastise him for coming to a conclusion based on one season yet you seem to be fine with putting a lot of stock into, checks notes, 20 games played.

Yeah, I forgot. I can't count the other 3 seasons of his career. I can only do last season and the 20 games this season to come to my conclusion. Sure. That makes sense.

Since I can't use the other three seasons (which, over 82 games, would amount to 29, 29, and 34 points) I guess I have to consider him a 40-point forward since the 20 games this year don't count due to . . . reasons. I guess even though he averages 32 points per season over 82 games, we can just round that up since the other games don't count.

Also, kind of funny that you bring up the point about getting rid of him in the discussion and then think that I wouldn't pick up on the shade. Come on, man. At least be honest. You lumped me in there. It's fine and it's not unreasonable since I am not a huge fan of his (though I do not want to move him).

Why get defensive over that? I'm not mad about you lumping me into that category. Just pushing back.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

What the hell do you think a Selke-caliber forward is? Plenty of players have won in the 50-60 point range. If he has SELKE-caliber defense and puts up 50-60 points, he's a SELKE-CALIBER FORWARD. All it would take would be one season in the high 50s or 60s and he'd win.

Did you even bother to look up past Selke winners or were you just enjoying speaking out of your ass?

Look up O'Reilly's career. He won the Selke the year he put up a bit more points than normal. If Kakko's defense was "Selke-caliber" and he was putting up 50+ points, he'd 100% be considered an elite player and a Selke-caliber forward.

The idea that I even have to defend this position to someone like you is laughable, but go on sport.

BTW, the best defensive forward of all time, Patrice Bergeron, had numerous 50-point seasons when he won the Selke.

Miss me with this "BUT HE DIDN'T SAY SELKE CALIBER HE SAID SELKE DEFENSE HURR DURR" bullshit.



Who said anything about getting rid of him? I think he's a fine 2nd/3rd liner. Are you thinking me not thinking he's elite means I want to get rid of him?

Why would I move the guy when his value is dogshit, anyway?

Again, you’re not reading. He specifically said that Kakko could give you Selke caliber defense. I didn’t see that poster suggest he would be a Selke caliber player

 

[bhamill]

What the hell do you think a Selke-caliber forward is? Plenty of players have won in the 50-60 point range. If he has SELKE-caliber defense and puts up 50-60 points, he's a SELKE-CALIBER FORWARD. All it would take would be one season in the high 50s or 60s and he'd win.

Did you even bother to look up past Selke winners or were you just enjoying speaking out of your ass?

Look up O'Reilly's career. He won the Selke the year he put up a bit more points than normal. If Kakko's defense was "Selke-caliber" and he was putting up 50+ points, he'd 100% be considered an elite player and a Selke-caliber forward.

The idea that I even have to defend this position to someone like you is laughable, but go on sport.

BTW, the best defensive forward of all time, Patrice Bergeron, had numerous 50-point seasons when he won the Selke.

Miss me with this "BUT HE DIDN'T SAY SELKE CALIBER HE SAID SELKE DEFENSE HURR DURR" bullshit.



Who said anything about getting rid of him? I think he's a fine 2nd/3rd liner. Are you thinking me not thinking he's elite means I want to get rid of him?

Why would I move the guy when his value is dogshit, anyway?

Well, as a 21-22 year old he put up 40 points, almost all at 5v5, was excellent on D and possession. You are extrapolating, in an earlier post, his entire season this year based on less than a quarter of a season... and talk about him being in his 5th year... he's only in his 5th year because he came into the league at 18. Most players would be on like their 2nd NHL season at his age, if that, so penalizing him for the NYR putting him on the roster as an 18 year old before he was NHL ready doesn't make sense. The point is, based on what he already did at 21-22, it is no stretch at all to say that at 24 or 25 he could be easily putting up 55-60 points and keep his D and possession up. Its not a stretch at all.

And while I feel KK is far from untouchable, you are right: moving him when his value is dogshit would be dumb as dogshit. Then again, as his value goes up people will stop saying we should move him. hahaha.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Again, you’re not reading. He specifically said that Kakko could give you Selke caliber defense. I didn’t see that poster suggest he would be a Selke caliber player

OK, this is going to be a bit of "main character syndrome" but my autistic ass actually looks up stats, does research, and comes prepared to this discussion (hence me being blown away by the cringe Selke take when I know numerous Selke winners have been in the 50-60 point range - apparently some on here don't know that?).

If I can look this shit up on the morning of one of my deceased parents' visitations, surely you have the time to actually look shit up as well.

Like, Kris Draper won the Selke in a year he was on pace to put up about 49 points before he was injured.

Why am I defending an objective take of mine against some no name poster who doesn't bother to even understand the f***ing Selke trophy? Did you even read what I wrote? I acknowledged his comment and then extrapolated on it and added in why it's wrong. He said Kakko would put up 50 points AND Selke-caliber defense. A 50-point player with Selke-caliber defense is OBJECTIVELY a Selke-caliber player.

Again, numerous guys have won the Selke with 40, 50, 60 points. Stop being naive. It's a wild take to say Kakko can put up Selke-caliber defense AND be a 50 point player. That's an elite player in this NHL.

 

[bhamill]

Again, you’re not reading. He specifically said that Kakko could give you Selke caliber defense. I didn’t see that poster suggest he would be a Selke caliber player

Yeah, I have to say that this is kind of a distinction without a difference.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Well, as a 21-22 year old he put up 40 points, almost all at 5v5, was excellent on D and possession. You are extrapolating, in an earlier post, his entire season this year based on less than a quarter of a season... and talk about him being in his 5th year... he's only in his 5th year because he came into the league at 18. Most players would be on like their 2nd NHL season at his age, if that, so penalizing him for the NYR putting him on the roster as an 18 year old before he was NHL ready doesn't make sense. The point is, based on what he already did at 21-22, it is no stretch at all to say that at 24 or 25 he could be easily putting up 55-60 points and keep his D and possession up. Its not a stretch at all.

And while I feel KK is far from untouchable, you are right: moving him when his value is dogshit would be dumb as dogshit. Then again, as his value goes up people will stop saying we should move him. hahaha.

I am talking about a single, ridiculous take. That Kakko will put up 50 points AND give Selke-caliber defense. This was the exact quote I take issue with:

"but 25-25-50 with Selke level defense is very possible IMO"

First off, his defense is nowhere near "Selke-level" to begin with. Let's get that out of the way, first. Second, a 5th-year guy who averages about 35-ish points with mediocre skating is going to pup up to 25/25/50 I think is very, very . . . well, it's just hopium. That is at least a bit subjective if you want to say the guy will keep developing, etc. but I don't see it at all.

That type of player is an elite, Selke-caliber player. Again, as I wrote, numerous Selke winners were in that 50-ish points range. It's not uncommon. So I take issue with the idea that Kakko will ever be in that category of players.

I feel like people on here say one bad thing about Kakko and numerous posters just stop reading. You should note that most people jumped on other random things than the actual point.

Yeah, I have to say that this is kind of a distinction without a difference.

Yep. 100%. It is a distinction without a difference since there are numerous guys who won the Selke in that 50-point range. Saying that a guy will give you Selke-caliber defense at 50+ points means he's a Selke-caliber forward.

No clue why I had to spend the time typing out this shit with something that is pretty clearly objective once people look at Selke winners over the years. (no snark intended your way, here)

 

[JCProdigy]

Yeah, I forgot. I can't count the other 3 seasons of his career. I can only do last season and the 20 games this season to come to my conclusion. Sure. That makes sense.

Since I can't use the other three seasons (which, over 82 games, would amount to 29, 29, and 34 points) I guess I have to consider him a 40-point forward since the 20 games this year don't count due to . . . reasons. I guess even though he averages 32 points per season over 82 games, we can just round that up since the other games don't count.

Also, kind of funny that you bring up the point about getting rid of him in the discussion and then think that I wouldn't pick up on the shade. Come on, man. At least be honest. You lumped me in there. It's fine and it's not unreasonable since I am not a huge fan of his (though I do not want to move him).

Why get defensive over that? I'm not mad about you lumping me into that category. Just pushing back.

Sorry to disappoint you but it's not all about you. I didn't lump you in. You projected and lumped yourself in.

Again counselor, point to me where I said you can't look at his previous three seasons? Again, projecting my man.

The way I look at it is I do in fact take his previous three seasons into account. Also take into account that those were his age 18-20 seasons. I also take into account that prior to this season his PPG and PP/60 rates have trended upward. He's struggled to find offense this year. I've made my feelings known previously how I think his mentality needs to change in the offensive zone.

You don't have to consider him anything. We disagree on his possible career projection.

 

[fm]

he sucks right now but he's still young. he's worth probably a 3rd rounder. maybe a second. hopefully he turns it around -- he's shown flashes of brilliance.

not complicated

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Sorry to disappoint you but it's not all about you. I didn't lump you in. You projected and lumped yourself in.

Again counselor, point to me where I said you can't look at his previous three seasons? Again, projecting my man.

The way I look at it is I do in fact take his previous three seasons into account. Also take into account that those were his age 18-20 seasons. I also take into account that prior to this season his PPG and PP/60 rates have trended upward. He's struggled to find offense this year. I've made my feelings known previously how I think his mentality needs to change in the offensive zone.

You don't have to consider him anything. We disagree on his possible career projection.

You should really read your own posts before you comment to me. This is your quote:

Second, in response to @NYR Viper it seems you chastise him for coming to a conclusion based on one season yet you seem to be fine with putting a lot of stock into, checks notes, 20 games played.

The idea that I am basing my conclusion on a 20-game sample is stupid. It's what you intended in that post.

When you post garbage like that, your intent behind it is to claim my opinion is formed on a hell of a lot less games than it actually is.

I mean, what do you expect with that? It's incendiary, sarcastic garbage that is easily called out. You're just mad that I responded with a greater amount of incendiary, sarcastic garbage.

 

[bhamill]

Again, numerous guys have won the Selke with 40, 50, 60 points. Stop being naive. It's a wild take to say Kakko can put up Selke-caliber defense AND be a 50 point player. That's an elite player in this NHL.

I don't think it is a wild take at all to say a guy who put up 40 points at 21-22 could put up 50+ at 25. And there's no reason he should stop playing excellent defense, so...

 

[mas0764]

40 points last year, on pace for 12 points this year.

Yeah, there's an obvious explanation to that.

The point that you seem to be trying to make is that we shouldn't expect him to become a 50 point player because he's only pacing for 12 this year, but you might as well argue that his injury is the root cause.

There's a problem that's rectifiable. Same as Lafreniere.

But yeah. A 50-point, Selke-caliber forward. Right. I do love that you left the word "Selke" out of this reply, at least.

I mean, he's very, very good at defense.

Whether he wins a Selke or not isn't really the point. Mark Stone hasn't won one either but he's a very good, 60 point RWer with elite defense.

I can't fathom how much we'd be laughing at Devils fans for their hope & cope if Kakko was theirs.

I mean, there's no doubt that the Kakko v. Hughes debates are long dead. He's not that level player.

That doesn't mean he can't still become a good first liner.

In all seriousness.

Can we start to be honest with ourselves about Kakko, yet? Like, the ridiculous takes you still see about this kid becoming some elite player (and, yes, a 50-point SELKE-caliber forward is an elite player) are just laughable at this point.

My hope is he can become a fine middle-six forward who can PK a bit. This idea that we should be expecting anything more than a "solid" player at this point is wild.

Not sure how serious a conversation we can have if you dismiss out of hand a ten point increase after age 22.

Again, we literally just went through this with Lafreniere and right now he's probably the second best forward on our team.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Yeah, there's an obvious explanation to that.

The point that you seem to be trying to make is that we shouldn't expect him to become a 50 point player because he's only pacing for 12 this year, but you might as well argue that his injury is the root cause.

There's a problem that's rectifiable. Same as Lafreniere.



I mean, he's very, very good at defense.

Whether he wins a Selke or not isn't really the point. Mark Stone hasn't won one either but he's a very good, 60 point RWer with elite defense.



I mean, there's no doubt that the Kakko v. Hughes debates are long dead. He's not that level player.

That doesn't mean he can't still become a good first liner.

I've long been on the "Laf is easily fixed" train because it was all confidence with him the entire time. Laf's a mediocre skater who has always been a big time swagger/confidence guy going back to juniors. I was more worried the team would fail to find a way to unlock him more than anything else. He'd be a guy that would break out elsewhere for sure.

Kakko is a lot more of a headcase than Laf is. You can make the argument that the team f***ed him over and ruined his potential. I won't disagree with you on that. He never should've been in the NHL at 18.

On the points, wrong. No. The 12 points this year, to me, is just a sign of Kakko reverting to the norm. I would not be shocked to see his career high in points top out around 40-45. The offense is just not there. The skating isn't there. The puck decisions are flat-out f***tarded in the offensive zone at times.

The irony is that you and I can talk about this better than others who come to Kakko's defense, lol. I like the kid. I do not want to trade him.

But Rangers fans need to stop being delusional about his potential.

 

[bhamill]

First off, his defense is nowhere near "Selke-level" to begin with. Let's get that out of the way, first. Second, a 5th-year guy who averages about 35-ish points with mediocre skating is going to pup up to 25/25/50 I think is very, very . . . well, it's just hopium. That is at least a bit subjective if you want to say the guy will keep developing, etc. but I don't see it at all.

"Selke level" defense is a pretty subjective term so I don't see the point in using it TBH. If he's ever nominated, then I guess his D is on that level.
I think it's enough to say that he is excellent defensively and not get hung up on arbitrary shit like what "Selke level" is.

 

[mas0764]

He's had ONE single 40 point season and he's on pace for 12 points this year.

Let's hold off on calling him a "40-point 2-way winger" until he can come close to replicating that.

The hopium some people still have for the guy is just silly. We need to look to reality at some point.

You can't take the averages and pretend they are representative of moving forward when you are talking about ages 18-21, including years that were marred by injury and covid-shortened seasons.

It's extremely likely the bulk of his career will be better than what he's shown from 18-21.

It's possible but that 40 points is his career high but more likely if he can fix his confidence issues, as Laf did, that 40 points is more of a baseline.

 

[mas0764]

I've long been on the "Laf is easily fixed" train because it was all confidence with him the entire time. Laf's a mediocre skater who has always been a big time swagger/confidence guy going back to juniors. I was more worried the team would fail to find a way to unlock him more than anything else. He'd be a guy that would break out elsewhere for sure.

Kakko is a lot more of a headcase than Laf is. You can make the argument that the team f***ed him over and ruined his potential. I won't disagree with you on that. He never should've been in the NHL at 18.

Well I definitely agree there.

On the points, wrong. No. The 12 points this year, to me, is just a sign of Kakko reverting to the norm. I would not be shocked to see his career high in points top out around 40-45. The offense is just not there. The skating isn't there. The puck decisions are flat-out f***tarded in the offensive zone at times.

Yeah, I don't agree. I don't see the skill to be a 70 point player maybe, but 50 is doable.

12 wouldn't be a reversion to the norm, it would actually be far below.

That's how we know it's an outlier.

His ppg averages have been 0.35, 0.35, 0.42, 0.49, and now 0.15.

That's not regression to a norm, it's a drastic low-end outlier. The norm would be about 0.4 and that's presuming no further development at age 22, which would be outside the norm itself.

A reasonable expectation would be continual development upwards from 0.49 ppg for a 22 year old.

That can be true and we can still be horrified that this is all we get out of a 2OA.

 

[bhamill]

On the points, wrong. No. The 12 points this year, to me, is just a sign of Kakko reverting to the norm. I would not be shocked to see his career high in points top out around 40-45. The offense is just not there. The skating isn't there. The puck decisions are flat-out f***tarded in the offensive zone at times.

The irony is that you and I can talk about this better than others who come to Kakko's defense, lol. I like the kid. I do not want to trade him.

But Rangers fans need to stop being delusional about his potential.

How is 12 point pace the norm? He has never paced that low.
29 point pace his 18yo year.
29 point pace his 19yo year.
34 point pace his 20yo year.
40 point pace last year.
And this is all pretty much 5v5.
There's progression, slow, but progression. 50+ points at 25 or so is no stretch at all.

 

[Synergy27]

And meanwhile, we have no idea what his injury is or how long he’s going to be out.

My daughter keeps asking me when Taco Taco is coming back and I have no answers.

 

[JCProdigy]

You should really read your own posts before you comment to me. This is your quote:



The idea that I am basing my conclusion on a 20-game sample is stupid. It's what you intended in that post.

When you post garbage like that, your intent behind it is to claim my opinion is formed on a hell of a lot less games than it actually is.

Ah and maybe read your post:

He's had ONE single 40 point season and he's on pace for 12 points this year.

I guess underlining and bolding something is suppose to indicate what exactly?

I mean, what do you expect with that? It's incendiary, sarcastic garbage that is easily called out. You're just mad that I responded with a greater amount of incendiary, sarcastic garbage.

Again projecting.

I responded to NYRViper's post. I mentioned those who have alluded to trading KK sooner than later. If you are not one of those then I was not talking about you. You responded thinking I was for some reason. Here so you know:

My hope is he can become a fine middle-six forward who can PK a bit. This idea that we should be expecting anything more than a "solid" player at this point is wild.

I AGREE