Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[Holls Blackmail]

And then it's on to obsessing about the one struggling player on that 125pt pace team.

If someone plays as poorly as Justin Holl does for a 125pt pace team, it’ll highlight his ineptitude even more.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Holl has some natural talent and has been solid in the past. You never know who's going to step up In the playoffs. I'd keep him based on his previous play and potential.

 

[ottomaddox]

And how good is that kind of record, exactly?

It's a good record, but so what?

Are you saying that Holl hasn't regressed at all because Toronto keeps winning?

There's always room.for improvement on any team. Many of us think that TOR will go after a Defenseman at the trade deadline. If they are sitting at 113 points at the end of the season they are:

1. Going to need Holl to play his best.
2. Going to rely on their new Defenseman to play a key role in the playoffs.

 

[TakeTheBody]

Holl is being paid like 5th or 6th defenseman. Seems everyone is spoiled because last year he played like three or a four. Maybes that's just how good Muzzin was least season. Holl is what he is, more exposed this season maybe that's because Muzzin has slipped a notch in his game. I'd hold on to him. The Leafs need depth on blue line. Holl knows the system. What can you really get for him in a trade? Keep him hope he figures it out and improves a little.

 

[ULF_55]

Holl is being paid like 5th or 6th defenseman. Seems everyone is spoiled because last year he played like three or a four. Maybes that's just how good Muzzin was least season. Holl is what he is, more exposed this season maybe that's because Muzzin has slipped a notch in his game. I'd hold on to him. The Leafs need depth on blue line. Holl knows the system. What can you really get for him in a trade? Keep him hope he figures it out and improves a little.

Unless you can move him in a deal to improve on his position.

Of course that would involve adding assets to the transaction.

 

[Superstar]

Holl is being paid like 5th or 6th defenseman. Seems everyone is spoiled because last year he played like three or a four. Maybes that's just how good Muzzin was least season. Holl is what he is, more exposed this season maybe that's because Muzzin has slipped a notch in his game. I'd hold on to him. The Leafs need depth on blue line. Holl knows the system. What can you really get for him in a trade? Keep him hope he figures it out and improves a little.

Dubas didn't sign him to be a 5th or 6th defenseman...Holl was supposed to be a value signing to compensate for overpaying some of the star forwards.

 

[Stonehands 1]

Trade him for a bag of pucks

 

[ponder]

Man, he's been having SUCH a disappointing season. Luckily one of the only Leafs playing poorly - I'd say just him, Ritchie and Mrazek (tiny sample size for Mrazek though). But yeah, he's been bad.

Examples from last night:

First Chicago goal
Poor communication with Kampf. Kampf at least makes a move to take away the pass, Holl needs to immediately cover Toews, but instead just skates weakly into no-mans land, giving Toews way too much room for an easy cut to the middle. Very, very poor defending.


Chicago PP rush/chance
Again caught slow and out of position on the rush. Doesn't completely lose Kane, but lets him gain inside position for a prime scoring chance. Doesn't end in a goal, but easily could have.


Second Chicago goal
Not terrible in this one, but still a bit weak. Initially pressures decently in the corner, but then gets too passive. That second battle should be a 2-on-2, but Holl fails to get involved and basically leaves Muzzin alone against two Hawks. The Hawks win the puck battle with Holl watching, skate it to the point, and score.


Third Chicago goal
Once again out of position in transition. Yeah, Kurashev is gonna beat Rubins to the puck, but not by enough to get off a good shot himself. The main danger here is the pass, but Holl leaves Kubalik wide open to help Rubins, but is too slow, and Kurashev finds Kubalik pretty easily for the goal. At least he made a decision here, unlike the first goal, but it was the wrong decision.
https://youtu.be/wZJjONuo8C0?t=376

All season long he's generated almost nothing offensively, but the real issue is that he's gone from a solid defensive dman to an absolute sieve. He's constantly out of position, late to pucks, poor gap control, passive, and just making the wrong plays. Seems to be lacking confidence, being indecisive way too often. Replace him with a quality 4D in that Chicago game and the Hawks only score 1-2 goals, not 4. When we're healthy I'd like to see him as our #7 dman:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Lily
Sandin - Dermott
Holl

 

[Aki Berg]

He knows he's playing like $hit , so he does what virtually every person would do, which it try too hard and then that is where you start to make stupid mistakes, like creating a 2 on one for the other team when it should be a 2 on two. That first goal last night, wow, that's Aki Berg type defending. He's lucky this is not a contract year.

He needs a few nights off to get his head straight.

Wrong.

If it was Aki Berg type defending there would have been no goal.

 

[griffon1]

Man, he's been having SUCH a disappointing season. Luckily one of the only Leafs playing poorly - I'd say just him, Ritchie and Mrazek (tiny sample size for Mrazek though). But yeah, he's been bad.

Examples from last night:

First Chicago goal
Poor communication with Kampf. Kampf at least makes a move to take away the pass, Holl needs to immediately cover Toews, but instead just skates weakly into no-mans land, giving Toews way too much room for an easy cut to the middle. Very, very poor defending.


Chicago PP rush/chance
Again caught slow and out of position on the rush. Doesn't completely lose Kane, but lets him gain inside position for a prime scoring chance. Doesn't end in a goal, but easily could have.


Second Chicago goal
Not terrible in this one, but still a bit weak. Initially pressures decently in the corner, but then gets too passive. That second battle should be a 2-on-2, but Holl fails to get involved and basically leaves Muzzin alone against two Hawks. The Hawks win the puck battle with Holl watching, skate it to the point, and score.


Third Chicago goal
Once again out of position in transition. Yeah, Kurashev is gonna beat Rubins to the puck, but not by enough to get off a good shot himself. The main danger here is the pass, but Holl leaves Kubalik wide open to help Rubins, but is too slow, and Kurashev finds Kubalik pretty easily for the goal. At least he made a decision here, unlike the first goal, but it was the wrong decision.
https://youtu.be/wZJjONuo8C0?t=376

All season long he's generated almost nothing offensively, but the real issue is that he's gone from a solid defensive dman to an absolute sieve. He's constantly out of position, late to pucks, and just making the wrong plays. Seems to be lacking confidence, being indecisive or just making the wrong decision way too often. Replace him with a quality 4D in that Chicago game and the Hawks only score 1-2 goals, not 4. When we're healthy I'd like to see him as our #7 dman:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Lily
Sandin - Dermott
Holl

And That 4th goal looked a lot like the 3rd

 

[Rogue Leader]

Holl was very good at understanding his limitations and playing to his strengths in the previous couple of seasons .. Using his size/reach, realizing he's not a fast player, and making smart decisions with the puck.

He's really making poor decisions out there and is having a hard time. And Muzzin isn't fast enough to cover his mistakes (and yes Muzzin has had his issues this year as well, age is starting to catch up with him).

I was never sold on him as a long term option, always thought of him as a #5 .. But he provided great value for awhile.

Really well put! He is what he is. For 2m - I actually think he is quite solid. He provides a little bit of everything, but is still not good enough for a roster spot in my fantasy league - that's why he is in my minors with no opportunity to break out to my main team anytime soon.

 

[Bluelines]

Wrong.

If it was Aki Berg type defending there would have been no goal.

LOL.. thanks kid... needed that laugh... LOL... no goal... suuuurrrrreeeeee

 

[Bluelines]

I think they tried this earlier in the season and he was OK for a couple of games and then slipped again.

Lily and Sandin looking like they are taking the next step is certainly coming at the right time.

For what he does this year and what he brings, a league min contract can play at Holl's 2021 level. I would suspect he will be gone in an effort to clear cap, it's not much but every dollar counts.

 

[frizzer1]

Was Holl just sent to the ECHL?
Or is that a fake report?

 

[keonsbitterness]

Was Holl just sent to the ECHL?
Or is that a fake report?

Totally fake.

 

[Holls Blackmail]

Was Holl just sent to the ECHL?
Or is that a fake report?

Sadly, fake.

 

[Notsince67]

Holls expected goals above replacement is -0.6.
Either reduce him to a sheltered roll or bounce him. He is a liability.

 

[123offtheglass]

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

He's garbage and he's been garbage for years but now that Muzzin is clearly hurt and therefore isn't carrying Holl right now the rest of you are seeing it now

 

[zeke]

It's a good record, but so what?

Are you saying that Holl hasn't regressed at all because Toronto keeps winning?

I'm saying that it's amusing that with the team at the top of the standings and underlying numbers to match, the hottest thread on the Leafs board is about their struggling #4 dman.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

He’s badly miscast on the “shut down” pair.

I'm flummoxed that the Leafs have not tried putting Brodie and Muzzin together as the shut down pair. They are our 2 best defensive defencemen and it boggles my mind why they won’t try it.

This would also allow Reilly’s offence to flourish against lesser competition which is what Babcock did when Rielly had his best season.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

I'm saying that it's amusing that with the team at the top of the standings and underlying numbers to match, the hottest thread on the Leafs board is about their struggling #4 dman.

He’s on the top shut down pair with Muzzin as per last years playoffs he will be matched against the other teams best players. It’s time for Brodie and Muzzin to play together.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Man, he's been having SUCH a disappointing season. Luckily one of the only Leafs playing poorly - I'd say just him, Ritchie and Mrazek (tiny sample size for Mrazek though). But yeah, he's been bad.

Examples from last night:

First Chicago goal
Poor communication with Kampf. Kampf at least makes a move to take away the pass, Holl needs to immediately cover Toews, but instead just skates weakly into no-mans land, giving Toews way too much room for an easy cut to the middle. Very, very poor defending.


Chicago PP rush/chance
Again caught slow and out of position on the rush. Doesn't completely lose Kane, but lets him gain inside position for a prime scoring chance. Doesn't end in a goal, but easily could have.


Second Chicago goal
Not terrible in this one, but still a bit weak. Initially pressures decently in the corner, but then gets too passive. That second battle should be a 2-on-2, but Holl fails to get involved and basically leaves Muzzin alone against two Hawks. The Hawks win the puck battle with Holl watching, skate it to the point, and score.


Third Chicago goal
Once again out of position in transition. Yeah, Kurashev is gonna beat Rubins to the puck, but not by enough to get off a good shot himself. The main danger here is the pass, but Holl leaves Kubalik wide open to help Rubins, but is too slow, and Kurashev finds Kubalik pretty easily for the goal. At least he made a decision here, unlike the first goal, but it was the wrong decision.
https://youtu.be/wZJjONuo8C0?t=376

All season long he's generated almost nothing offensively, but the real issue is that he's gone from a solid defensive dman to an absolute sieve. He's constantly out of position, late to pucks, poor gap control, passive, and just making the wrong plays. Seems to be lacking confidence, being indecisive way too often. Replace him with a quality 4D in that Chicago game and the Hawks only score 1-2 goals, not 4. When we're healthy I'd like to see him as our #7 dman:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Lily
Sandin - Dermott
Holl

This was a great post but we need a true shutdown pair and that is Brodie/Muzzin playing together

Muzzin -Brodie
Reilly - Holl
Sandin - Lily/Dermott

 

[zeke]

He’s on the top shut down pair with Muzzin as per last years playoffs he will be matched against the other teams best players. It’s time for Brodie and Muzzin to play together.

it's definitely an option.

though Rielly-Brodie is maybe playing the best they've ever played right now so it's not the easiest time to make the switch.

 

[Notsince67]

I'm saying that it's amusing that with the team at the top of the standings and underlying numbers to match, the hottest thread on the Leafs board is about their struggling #4 dman.

The main issue is that Holl is over his head and at the least needs some sheltering on the third pair with reduced minutes.
When the lineup is healthy, there are just better options. He isn't part of the core and is producing below a replacement level player.