He was involved (or not involved, depending on perspective) in another goal later on where it looked like his main concern was to cover thin air and make sure it doesn't get a scoring chance.
Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread
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He was involved (or not involved, depending on perspective) in another goal later on where it looked like his main concern was to cover thin air and make sure it doesn't get a scoring chance.
Holl has been god awful this year. His positioning and puck decisions consistently show he's not an NHL player.
The first goal tonight showed how lost he is in this league. Guy has no business playing. Truly hope that Dubas addresses this issue and acquired a serviceable 3rd pairing guy for the right side and moves on from Holl.
The first goal tonight showed how lost he is in this league. Guy has no business playing. Truly hope that Dubas addresses this issue and acquired a serviceable 3rd pairing guy for the right side and moves on from Holl.
ottomaddox
Registered User
Tonight I watched Holl look like he's never ever defended before:
Poor positioning.
Giveaways.
Missed assignments.
Total confusion.
He needs to be demoted.
Poor positioning.
Giveaways.
Missed assignments.
Total confusion.
He needs to be demoted.
When pundits do talk about him (rarely), they all seem stuck on treating him like a late bloomer with potential, as if he isn't turning 30 next month and likely on the downswing of his likely short career.
At any rate, we can't have him and Muzzin both pinching and trying to show their offensive skills once in a while because unlike Muzzin, Holl has none. Seriously, one assist all season? That's sad. Meanwhile, Keefe keeps saying:
Phaneuf used to play loads of tough minutes too.. the key is to actually be good at it, though.
At any rate, we can't have him and Muzzin both pinching and trying to show their offensive skills once in a while because unlike Muzzin, Holl has none. Seriously, one assist all season? That's sad. Meanwhile, Keefe keeps saying:
Phaneuf used to play loads of tough minutes too.. the key is to actually be good at it, though.
His a 6-7D why care so much? This team plays to fast for the shut down D that everyone here wants with size. Almost all the team would be trapped on the offensive zone scattering back lethargically on a lost puck possession because the simply play to deep most of the time. Holl is regressing sure, but for some reason Lily's time and Sandins time aren't rising much. This is more of a coach problem, trying to perhaps sparking something and failing miserably.
Havoc
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- Jul 25, 2009
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wow. missed this game just caught up.
Speechless. Get this guy out of here. 2 on 1 first goal....might as well be 2 on 0. Then no awareness on Kubalik standing there on their second goal. Weird decision to chase down the puck on the third goal leaving a guy wide open, can only assume Holl doesn't even know the guy is there.....With a competent no.4 this game is a 5-1 blowout.
Speechless. Get this guy out of here. 2 on 1 first goal....might as well be 2 on 0. Then no awareness on Kubalik standing there on their second goal. Weird decision to chase down the puck on the third goal leaving a guy wide open, can only assume Holl doesn't even know the guy is there.....With a competent no.4 this game is a 5-1 blowout.
He's having a tough time keeping up with the play for sure. I still have faith that he'll come around again, he just seems a step behind and exhausted most of his shift.. don't know if it's a conditioning issue, he was pretty good last year (in the season) he just needs to pick up his game and play it simple. He is running out of time however... Lilly had been looking like he's adjusting game by game and growing his own game so it was Holls job to lose and he's letting it slip away.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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It is because he is playing well more often than not. That is why his underlying numbers are fairly good, but his GA numbers are not as good. Same applies for Muzzin.
The bad news is that it sucks and needs to change. The good news is that it means he is not nearly as bad of a defenseman as people make him out to be and he is much more likely to make those changes than people probably think right now. These guys are not rookies.
Keefe calls it out of sync. Holl and Muzzin are not the only ones suffering from it, but they are suffering from it the most. They will get some confidence and it will start to look a lot better, just like they did for much of November.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
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Also, for all of those who are saying we should have protected McCann instead of Holl... If McCann was shooting his career average right now instead of 22%, which has been steadily going down since he has picked up many of those goals earlier in the year, he wouldn't even be hitting a 0.5 PPG right now... With 1PP minutes and little defensive responsibilities (including zero PK minutes). He is also not playing at center anymore, like he was earlier in the year.
Comparatively, Nick Ritchie, if he was shooting his career percentage of ~10% rather than the 2.3% he is sporting right now, would have a similar goal and point total in a similar number of total minutes (Ritchie plays less per game, but Ritchie has played more games overall) as McCann, with fewer PP minutes.
Comparatively, Nick Ritchie, if he was shooting his career percentage of ~10% rather than the 2.3% he is sporting right now, would have a similar goal and point total in a similar number of total minutes (Ritchie plays less per game, but Ritchie has played more games overall) as McCann, with fewer PP minutes.
WTFMAN99
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- Jun 17, 2009
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So we'd have some decent depth I guess?
Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Kerfoot-JT-88
McCann-Kampf-Kase
Ritchie-Spezza-Simmonds
Mikhayev, Engvall
Rielly-Dermott
Muzzin-Brodie
Sandin-Liljegren
Basically just looks like you'd need to find a top 4 RHD instead of potentially a top 6-9 LW AND top 4 RHD
I imagine though this is over the cap and other moves would need to have been made for this to even be a thing...Ritchie probably not signed.
stakesishigh
how swede it is
At 4-1, he went for a skate behind the Hawks' goal and promplty turned over the puck 200 feet from his net
30 seconds later it was 4-2 when he skated away from a guy standing directly in front of his goalie in order to cover nobody
At 4-4, he thought about pinching to hold the puck in, backed off too late, misplayed the puck at center, and almost coughed up a 2 on 1
At 5-4, he held onto the puck in the corner allowing 3 Hawks' to swarm him, leading to a turnover with the game hanging in the balance
He has absolutely zero situtational awareness and seems to think he has skills
He needs to play within his limits, ala Bogo, and stop trying to be Bobby Orr
30 seconds later it was 4-2 when he skated away from a guy standing directly in front of his goalie in order to cover nobody
At 4-4, he thought about pinching to hold the puck in, backed off too late, misplayed the puck at center, and almost coughed up a 2 on 1
At 5-4, he held onto the puck in the corner allowing 3 Hawks' to swarm him, leading to a turnover with the game hanging in the balance
He has absolutely zero situtational awareness and seems to think he has skills
He needs to play within his limits, ala Bogo, and stop trying to be Bobby Orr
justashadowof
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- Aug 15, 2020
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He is on the ice for 15 to 20 minutes a night. Seems like enough of a reason to care.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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They looked good in November?
Most I’m sure would agree they’ve been terrible all year.
The Iceman
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- Sep 22, 2007
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Mess
Global Moderator
Its like Holl has forgotten even the basics of playing defense 101.
What he was doing on Chicago 1st and 3rd goals was anybody's best guess and what he was thinking and who he thought he was covering.
Watching Toews skate right into the slot as he back upped give him the HDSC from prime shooing territory, and why he chose to go and cover the same Hawk his partner already was playing leaving his man wide open for an easy goal among his most egregious lack of defense common sense plays yesterday.
What he was doing on Chicago 1st and 3rd goals was anybody's best guess and what he was thinking and who he thought he was covering.
Watching Toews skate right into the slot as he back upped give him the HDSC from prime shooing territory, and why he chose to go and cover the same Hawk his partner already was playing leaving his man wide open for an easy goal among his most egregious lack of defense common sense plays yesterday.
tmlfan98
No More Excuses #MarnerOut
Oscar Peterson
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- Jun 27, 2015
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I don't think Holl has forgotten anything, he never really knew what he was doing in the first place.
It was the same story the last two seasons, Justin Holl would play a very simplified, defense first game where he wouldn't try to carry the puck at all and he would actually look competent due to his deference to Muzzin and Muzzin's strong play. Inevitably, after about 20 games of success with this style he would revert to trying to go on rushes, looking off easy breakout passes to Matthews/Marner etc. to try and go end to end and his true colours would once again show.
No, but seriously, I know a few of us have noticed that he can't make good passes under pressure and that he loses track of his man in the D zone for a couple of years now, he has been my least favourite Leaf since signing that contract extension. He has been somewhat of a Dubas pet project for about 5 years now so unfortunately I think our management has some blind loyalty to him. Try as I might, I try to see the good in him that other people claim to see but I just can't, his decision making is just so poor in multiple aspects.
It was the same story the last two seasons, Justin Holl would play a very simplified, defense first game where he wouldn't try to carry the puck at all and he would actually look competent due to his deference to Muzzin and Muzzin's strong play. Inevitably, after about 20 games of success with this style he would revert to trying to go on rushes, looking off easy breakout passes to Matthews/Marner etc. to try and go end to end and his true colours would once again show.
No, but seriously, I know a few of us have noticed that he can't make good passes under pressure and that he loses track of his man in the D zone for a couple of years now, he has been my least favourite Leaf since signing that contract extension. He has been somewhat of a Dubas pet project for about 5 years now so unfortunately I think our management has some blind loyalty to him. Try as I might, I try to see the good in him that other people claim to see but I just can't, his decision making is just so poor in multiple aspects.
18-22 mins/night. The other poster is correct, he is only a 6-7 guy. The problem though is that he plays the minutes of a 3-4 guy and does an extremely poor job at it.
Brobust
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- Sep 29, 2017
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Holl has been a legit solid shutdown D the last couple of years but seems to have lost a step as quickly as he found one. It's a tough fast league out there and you have to remember he's the same guy that was legit frustrating and shutting down McDavid 8 months ago.
You can see why the team wants to give him a chance to find his game and I don't see anything wrong with that. He could be a valuable commodity if he gets close to what he was not long ago.
You can see why the team wants to give him a chance to find his game and I don't see anything wrong with that. He could be a valuable commodity if he gets close to what he was not long ago.
Oscar Peterson
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- Jun 27, 2015
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To be fair though, that game (honestly that whole mini series) against McDavid was the greatest hockey he's played in his career. He deserved to be commended for that performance, but let's not act like that's the norm for him or even a realistic expectation of how he should be playing.
ottomaddox
Registered User
I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. I like Holl. I watched him play well as a Marlie, and was happy that he earned a contract with the Leafs. I always thought he was a bottom D on an NHL team. I want him to be better, but I certainly don't want him finding himself as TOR's #7 D.
Impressive post to like ration brother, it would be higher if you took those thick dense paragraphs of yours and cut them up...Its a device to eye world leaf brother...
I am approaching mole eye status and reading interesting posts that are too dense is a big part of it, help me, help, you.
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