Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[notdoneyet]

Here are his stats
67% of his icetime he sucks
72% gets beat due to being SLOW
85% of the time he gets knocked on his ass
Because he is SOFT
100% of the time he is not a top four defender with any team in the league

 

[Lemontree]

He isn’t miscast as a top 4, he is miscast as an every day player on a team that has hopes of being a contender. He is the exact player that should carve out an NHL career playing for the bottom feeders in the NHL as they go through a rebuild. Does anyone else remember the 8 game winning streak when he was out of the lineup?

 

[TeddyBare]

Underlying numbers can be kind to him

But he just makes such idiotic plays at the blueline, and neutral zone that seem to 99% of the time end up in the net.

 

[Stephen]

He isn’t miscast as a top 4, he is miscast as an every day player on a team that has hopes of being a contender. He is the exact player that should carve out an NHL career playing for the bottom feeders in the NHL as they go through a rebuild. Does anyone else remember the 8 game winning streak when he was out of the lineup?

There are a lot of NHL defensemen who are given defensive assignments and they succeed colour within the lines. Keep things simple, play within your skillset, stay in your lane, make sure you make the right plays and don't gamble because you're not that kind of player etc.

I don't think Holl has been given the specific defensive assignment, has been enabled to be more free wheeling that he should be and so he has a lot of issues. So I think it's a coaching, developmental issue and it's a player issue. Same developmental problems with Dermott.

 

[notdoneyet]

Underlying numbers can be kind to him

But he just makes such idiotic plays at the blueline, and neutral zone that seem to 99% of the time end up in the net.

some posters would have you believe his stats put him as one of our top defenders
When he plays like shit in the playoffs and we go out in the first round again his fanboys will try to jam his good stats down your throat

he is not and will never be a top four dman
In any team in the league

 

[BertCorbeau]

That attempt to move the puck up the ice on that first goal was beer league calibre

 

[fahad203]

some posters would have you believe his stats put him as one of our top defenders
When he plays like shit in the playoffs and we go out in the first round again his fanboys will try to jam his good stats down your throat

he is not and will never be a top four dman
In any team in the league

Dude's a good guy. He's just being put on a very tough spot. If you ask him he'll tell you he shouldn't be playing as much as he has

It's Dubas/Keefe somehow believe that he can be a top 4 guy. If we had a Hedman, maybe you can hide him on top of but really he should be 5/6 guy and a very good one

We can't go into playoffs with Holl, Sandin and Lilly making up 50% of the D

 

[Eye Test]

Dude's a good guy. He's just being put on a very tough spot. If you ask him he'll tell you he shouldn't be playing as much as he has

It's Dubas/Keefe somehow believe that he can be a top 4 guy. If we had a Hedman, maybe you can hide him on top of but really he should be 5/6 guy and a very good one

We can't go into playoffs with Holl, Sandin and Lilly making up 50% of the D

I like sandin and lillys game this year, I see them as long term leafs but I agree. Sandin is small, Lilly should be on the third pairing for the playoffs and holl has been regressing.

I actually have the most confidence in Lilly the kids solid but Id still want him sheltered this year.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Keefe needs to give up with the Muzzin-Holl pairing they have looked bad all year.

 

[Maple Leaf]

dubas protected him

 

[Havoc]

Need to see Holl with Sandin again before we write him off. With the exception of the bad bounce he looked fine paired with Sandins high iq. If not fine, at least way better than what he looks like back with Muzzin.

Even then, we still need a no.4. If he sucks with muzzin and they'd rather trade him than put him on 3rd pair, we need a new partner for muzzin. If he gels with sandin and they like him more on 3rd pair, we still need a new partner for muzzin. I don't think Liljegren is ready for that yet.

They should run muzzin-Lil leading into the deadline so we can see what it looks like. Maybe they tear it up, who knows. Time to call time of death on muzzin-holl as soon as next game.

Keefe said he's open to experiments, so start the experimenting.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

I finally had an opportunity to direct my vitriol at him from the same postal code. He's soft as shit.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Kind of reminds me of Marincin.

The analytics (and their cult) will praise the hell out of the stats...anyone who knows anything about hockey knows he's a #6-7 type.

Sandin looks like he's gonna be able to play top 4 for us but we need a RD to go with him.

 

[Funk21]

Here are his stats
67% of his icetime he sucks
72% gets beat due to being SLOW
85% of the time he gets knocked on his ass
Because he is SOFT
100% of the time he is not a top four defender with any team in the league

Well said even if the numbers are a bit low by my eye test. If teams are willing to eat a Ritchie contract please for the love of god include Holl in that deal and create the space and use some picks and prospects to upgrade our RHD position.

 

[Griffin76]

Kind of reminds me of Marincin.

The analytics (and their cult) will praise the hell out of the stats...anyone who knows anything about hockey knows he's a #6-7 type.

Sandin looks like he's gonna be able to play top 4 for us but we need a RD to go with him.

Reminds me more of Corrado. Could look brilliant for a shift or 2 each game but mediocre to struggling on all the others.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Clearly Dubie is telling Keefer who to play. There is no way Holl should be in any NHL lineup and Dermy scratched when healthy. Sure Dermy is having his issues but at least he has NHL skill. It sends wrong message to team when you play favs. Holl again cost us a point last game. Muzzy needs a guy who can skate beside him. You can't have either Sandin or Holl who can't skate plying with Muzzy. It has to be either Lily or Dermy that's it. Enough of BS I am so sick of da politics here. It is costing team easy points.

 

[Apex Predator]

I’m getting a little worried that Muzzin can no longer carry a partner and needs someone to help carry him. Muzzin has not been right all year and this is concerning.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I’m getting a little worried that Muzzin can no longer carry a partner and needs someone to help carry him. Muzzin has not been right all year and this is concerning.

Father time has no prisoners .. I thought it would happen next year but it happens .. he still can play 2nd pair minutes but he needs a partner who can skate to help him out here and there .. we got/saw 2.5 years of top end Muzzy and last 3 years will get progressively worse .. but Dubie had to manage AAV and gave extra year or two because we overpaid 3 guys .. life in NHL CBA CAP world my friend

 

[Carltons Cup]

I wish I was the Leafs travel agent.

After tonight's game, I'd "accidentally" book him on the Red Eye to Nepal (one-way ticket of course).

 

[Stinger8]

I’m getting a little worried that Muzzin can no longer carry a partner and needs someone to help carry him. Muzzin has not been right all year and this is concerning.

I said it a week ago. Muzzin is regressing. He is slower and softer that he has ever been. He got run by Lewis on Saturday night and did nothing to send a message back. I move him in the off season mainly due to his cap hit. At $2.5 MM he is fine at $5.6 he is drastically over paid.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I wish I was the Leafs travel agent.

After tonight's game, I'd "accidentally" book him on the Red Eye to Nepal (one-way ticket of course).

then tell him to climb Everest and we can talk after he has pictures of roof

 

[Nylanderthal]

As bad as Holl & Muzz have looked together so far this year, I thought that they played a lot better apart and matched up with one of the young rookies. I’d like to see them go back to Muzz Liljegren
Sandin Holl
It feels like forcing a square peg into a round hole trying to force the two together in a defensive shut down role.
Neither can handle the puck very well and often get hemmed in their ends. Muzz would benefit from liljegrens mobility and Holl would benefit from Rasmus’ IQ and both Swedes have superior puck skills.

 

[ACC1224]

I wish I was the Leafs travel agent.

After tonight's game, I'd "accidentally" book him on the Red Eye to Nepal (one-way ticket of course).

Shoot him to the moon so there is no possible way for him to return.

 

[Zybalto]

137 dmen have played 200+5v5 minutes since January 1st.

Looking at a mix of traditional and advanced stats:
Holl's ranking defensively /60(Mostly in a defensive role):

Shots Against: 30th fewest out of 137
Scoring Chances Against: 4th fewest out of 137
High Danger Chances Against: 2nd fewest out of 137
Expected Goals Against: 4th fewest out of 137


The PK numbers over that time (and ranking out of the 68 dmen who have played 30+ minutes)
Shots Against: 4th fewest out of 68
Scoring Chances Against: 7th fewest out of 68
High Danger Chances Against: 28th fewest out of 68
Expected Goals Against: 5th fewest out of 68

Take the numbers for what you will.

 

[Stephen]

Clearly Dubie is telling Keefer who to play. There is no way Holl should be in any NHL lineup and Dermy scratched when healthy. Sure Dermy is having his issues but at least he has NHL skill. It sends wrong message to team when you play favs. Holl again cost us a point last game. Muzzy needs a guy who can skate beside him. You can't have either Sandin or Holl who can't skate plying with Muzzy. It has to be either Lily or Dermy that's it. Enough of BS I am so sick of da politics here. It is costing team easy points.

The reason we see them go back to the well with Holl is because there's no one else whose 6'4" and a RHD. It's a body type that can handle situations. With Dermott, he's a little bit smoother at certain aspects of the game but he also plays skittish and gets rattled when he's challenged physically. So what can you do, two imperfect defensemen who should be lower on the depth chart.