Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[Kiwi]

He is currently the #4 dman (on the top matchup pairijg) for one of the best teams and defensive teams in hockey this year and last.

He's also been benched by Keefe this season because he couldn't pull his head out of his ass

He was fine last season, but there's no way in hell he can do that job in the playoffs performing like he's had a lobotomy (that's this season)

 

[zeke]

He's also been benched by Keefe this season because he couldn't pull his head out of his ass

Luxury of having a stacked dcorps.

 

[Menzinger]

He's also been benched by Keefe this season because he couldn't pull his head out of his ass

He was fine last season, but there's no way in hell he can do that job in the playoffs performing like he's had a lobotomy (that's this season)

He's had some awful games this season. But I think folks have been exaggerating for how long. He's had more good games than not so far.

 

[Zybalto]

He's had some awful games this season. But I think folks have been exaggerating for how long. He's had more good games than not so far.

Since the benching, 5v5 he has the second lowest xga/60 and lowest straight up goals against/60 of all dmen on the Leafs despite hard usage and 43% ozone starts. Thats right, if you saw a goal going in on the Leafs 5v5 since the start of November, chances are it wasnt with him defending. Since that time top 30 in the NHL (out of 160+ top minute dmen) in both categories.

Wouldnt be the Leafs without our scapegoats.

 

[Kiwi]

Luxury of having a stacked dcorps.

The term you are looking for is good, not stacked

Two rookies and Marlies plugs are getting minutes, that ain't stacked

He's had some awful games this season. But I think folks have been exaggerating for how long. He's had more good games than not so far.

Awful at the start of the season and he's not a top 4D without Muzzin playing well beside him

 

[Leafsfan74]

He and Sandin would make a good 3rd pairing.

This would be the manner in which I would operate at the deadline if I was Dubas.

If they pick up a strong #4, this would form a formidable playoff backend top to bottom.

There is no shame playing on a third pair on a top tier team in the NHL. I've seen the Devils teams that were stacked this way when they had their Cup runs and those teams didn't have the firepower the Leafs have.

It wouldn't be a demotion, but rather a situational decision that puts the team in the best position to win.

Sandin and he have been effective when together. They a throwing checks and remaining disciplined. I might be willing to go with a young Sandin in the playoffs in such a situation.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

This would be the manner in which I would operate at the deadline if I was Dubas.

If they pick up a strong #4, this would form a formidable playoff backend top to bottom.

There is no shame playing on a third pair on a top tier team in the NHL. I've seen the Devils teams that were stacked this way when they had their Cup runs and those teams didn't have the firepower the Leafs have.

It wouldn't be a demotion, but rather a situational decision that puts the team in the best position to win.

Sandin and he have been effective when together. They a throwing checks and remaining disciplined. I might be willing to go with a young Sandin in the playoffs in such a situation.

Yup.

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin trade
Sandin Holl

Is what I'm hoping for.

They'd get some lighter match up 5 on 5 on the 3rd pair. They'd get special teams time too. Sandin on the 2nd pp and Holl on the Pk so Keefe could still get plenty of usage out of the pair.

 

[mulefarm]

He’s been very good the last 6 weeks.

 

[Holls Blackmail]

He’s been very good the last 6 weeks.

At what?

 

[2 Slick]

At what?

Losing sight of the puck and looking lost like he did last night against the Canes.

 

[The Podium]

Watch da replay it is crystal clear .. are you kidding with me? .. JT was chasing puck carrier wide, Sandin moved up from bottom of circle to defend/attack puck carrier which is correct position as a left side D and Holl is watching whole thing in a complete daze and does not even turn his head to cover his man on right side D who was at net .. he does absolutely NOTHING ZILCH except skate forward .. like I said he might as well have shot puck in his own net .. he is one of those guys who is in NOWHERE LAND on defense .. anyhow he learned his hockey somewhere in States where who da h*ll knows what they teach to defenders .. but it has nothing to do with proper defensive play

JT and Sandin both chased the puck carrier, Holl was left to decide between blocking the shot from the slot or covering the back door. He got caught for a second and hesitated trying to decide which and it burned him. But that was a failed communication by JT and Sandin, one of which should’ve covered the guy coming high through the slot while Holl would have the guy on the right post covered.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

He's had some awful games this season. But I think folks have been exaggerating for how long. He's had more good games than not so far.

No he hasn't you just don't realize it because Muzzin has carried him for the vast majority of his NHL career

The realiis Justin Holl is the weak link on defense.

Justin Holl needs to be replaced.

Not for a game, or 2 games, or 5 games

Permanently

 

[The Podium]

No he hasn't you just don't realize it because Muzzin has carried him for the vast majority of his NHL career

The realiis Justin Holl is the weak link on defense.

Justin Holl needs to be replaced.

Not for a game, or 2 games, or 5 games

Permanently

But… he’s looked a ton better with Sandin than Muzzy this year.

I think he looked bad early because the Muzzin-Holl pairing has no one to break out the puck and got hemmed more often than not.

 

[Frostitute]

Hello all! Long time reader (10+ yrs) first time poster! Decided to stop stalking and start talking.

Holl is a fine 3rd pair defenceman who has the ability to step into a top 4 role when needed.

If we are using him more/less than that, that's on us. People have being saying it for a while, we need a youngish top 4 RHD for the playoffs AND future runs.

I like Holl and at 2m/per he is priced accordingly for what he brings IMO. I mean, look at the guys legendary locks! Haha. The problem is how we use him and our expectations.

Chychrun would be nice on that second pair.

 

[The Podium]

Hello all! Long time reader (10+ yrs) first time poster! Decided to stop stalking and start talking.

Holl is a fine 3rd pair defenceman who has the ability to step into a top 4 role when needed.

If we are using him more/less than that, that's on us. People have being saying it for a while, we need a youngish top 4 RHD for the playoffs AND future runs.

I like Holl and at 2m/per he is priced accordingly for what he brings IMO. I mean, look at the guys legendary locks! Haha. The problem is how we use him and our expectations.

Chychrun would be nice on that second pair.

Solid first post

 

[Frostitute]

Solid first post

Thanks. I appreciate that. Also, I think you're correct in that Holl with Muzzin lacks a breakout pass.

This is troubling when neither of them are above average skaters IMO so it tends to get dumped up off the boards too often.

Then, instead of just carrying the puck into the oppositions zone on a rush OR cycling it around, we are left battling for more 50/50 pucks than are necessary.

It's why Sandin looks good there at the moment when IMO he isnt ready for that role yet either.

 

[banks]

Trade deadline is too far away. I'm hoping a move is made now to address the defense. Give whoever comes in time to adjust, and try to go for a higher spot in the standings now before it's already decided.

Holl is fine on the 3rd pair with Sandin. Liljegren at #7 for a playoff run is pretty good. Just find a partner for Muzzin and the job is done.

 

[justloveleafs]

Its so chaotic, when a puck is open and loose, in front of your net... What was Holl to do there? Probably didn't have time to drop down and try to sit on the puck, he looked pretty bad on that goal, but what dman hasn't been in that situation. No time to think or react and the forward smells blood.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I've heard that American hockey coaches teach defenders completely off what they learned in Mighty Ducks movies.

Defense is a learned practice which comes from ten of thousands of reps in games in different situations .. fyi almost every pro player has learned his craft well before showing up in a pro camp .. at that point it is skills fine tuning and more focused on systems training .. Holl was what he was well before he got to Marlies camp (his defensive instincts were implanted) .. but there is no doubt that Leafs/Marlies defender development/training is BY FAR worst in pro hockey over past 50 years

 

[JT AM da real deal]

JT and Sandin both chased the puck carrier, Holl was left to decide between blocking the shot from the slot or covering the back door. He got caught for a second and hesitated trying to decide which and it burned him. But that was a failed communication by JT and Sandin, one of which should’ve covered the guy coming high through the slot while Holl would have the guy on the right post covered.

Let me make this absolutely clear .. it ATOM AAA hockey in GTA a right defender is told you always cover man on your side of ice closest to goal .. let tender take da shooter .. this is BASIC defender 101 training .. getting caught in middle is ALWAYS worst case scenario and should always lead to benching's to make point crystal clear

 

[The Podium]

Let me make this absolutely clear .. it ATOM AAA hockey in GTA a right defender is told you always cover man on your side of ice closest to goal .. let tender take da shooter .. this is BASIC defender 101 training .. getting caught in middle is ALWAYS worst case scenario and should always lead to benching's to make point crystal clear

A winger below the goal line is a lower risk than a player alone in the slot.

I’ve played high level D my whole life, that’s a team defensive breakdown, not on a single player.

In an ideal world the C takes the carrier, RD takes the post and LD covers the slot in that situation.

 

[zeke]

Fun fact: that fluke bounce of the stanchion goal with Holl on the ice is only the 4th 5v5 goal against with Holl on the ice since January 1.

Here's how many 5v5 goals have been scored against our dmen in that time:

Dahlstrom: 1gms, 0 goals against (0.00 per game, 0.00 per 60)
Holl: 10gms, 4 goals against (0.40 per game, 1.31 per 60)
Sandin: 12gms, 10 goals against (0.83 per game, 3.07 per 60)
Dermott: 13gms, 9 goals against (0.69 per game, 3.18 per 60)
Rielly: 13gms, 14 goals against (1.08 per game, 3.44 per 60)
Brodie: 13gms, 15 goals against (1.15 per game, 3.60 per 60)
Liljegren: 9gms, 8 goals against(0.89 per game, 3.95 per 60)
Muzzin: 5gms, 6 goals against (1.20 per game, 4.13 per 60)
Biega: 2gms, 2 goals against (1.00 per game, 4.69 per 60)

Also only 1 goal against scored on the PK with Holl on the ice during that time, even though he has received the 3rd most PK minutes over that stretch.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

He’s been playing well lately. If he keeps this up he’s a solid #5 who can fill in as a #4 if needed

 

[JT AM da real deal]

A winger below the goal line is a lower risk than a player alone in the slot.

I’ve played high level D my whole life, that’s a team defensive breakdown, not on a single player.

In an ideal world the C takes the carrier, RD takes the post and LD covers the slot in that situation.

Well I was never once in my entire playing career as a defender in GTA with Marlies and/or with Wolves to leave guy standing on goal line in blue ice alone .. most goals are scored in blue ice .. there may have been other mistakes but that one was a CARDINAL sin which led to goal .. i can see as a former pro defender it is due to lack of proper training

 

[Dekes For Days]

He's been playing pretty well lately, in a pretty difficult role. Hope he keeps it up!