Juraj Slafkovsky - Year Two

[billy piton]

the thing is, i dont think Slaf will ever be a 60pts player...he doesn't have the skillset to be a 60 pts player.

I'm thinking is ceiling is something more like Lawson Crowse...

no one knows what slaf will become. but it's well known that you can't win with all midgets team so, at some point, you have to take a chance on size. and it's not like they took slaf over bedard.

 

[cave troll]

slaf is skilled, not just big. cooley is 20kg lighter than suzuki and time and time again it's proven that you can't win in the nhl with midgets only. i'll take slaf at 60pts over cooley at 80pts in their primes. plus, you never wanted cooley at the draft, but shane wright.

classic mmqb cave troll as always

I doesn't matter who I wanted I was just talking about Cooley. I didn't want Slaf and Mesar just like I didn't want Reinbacher, but it is what it is. I have full faith in Bobrov.

no one knows what slaf will become. but it's well known that you can't win with all midgets team, so at some point, you have take a chance on size. and it's not like they took slaf over bedard.

Time to bring back McBust and Tinordi.

 

[417]

They didn't play in the NHL at age 18.

Suzuki played in CHL
Guhke played in the CHL
Caufield played in the NCAA

So is the argument then that the CHL and NCAA, are better prep leagues for the NHL than the AHL?

Cause you can't have it both ways. The argument I was having related to guys needing some AHL seasoning….none of those guys had any, but now we’re arguing the extra year (and in Guhle’s case we’re talking about 44 CHL games, Caufield even less NCAA games post draft year) is what made the difference???

 

[BehindTheTimes]

That goal actually had a lot of what we want to see from Slaf. Give and go, skate into space and take it to the net. Good things happen.

Agreed. I has happy to see it. We will see if it continues. Feels like this takes effort and doesn’t come naturally from him, so I’m holding my breath.. it was a good play from the kid.

 

[19VJ17]

It is really sad for long-time fans to keep seeing poorly run development programs from GM to GM.
Not only do we not develop players in an efficient way but no future coaches and management personal are coming up through our system of crap

We fire the old GM and hire a new one and they always think they can develop our prospects better than the other GM by doing the same things the other GM and his buddies did.

The BIGGEST pissoff is the owner that has seen this stupid act over and over again doesn't put his foot down and tell the New GM they will not be developing the prospects because they have an ego as big as a bus with no f***en experience developing anything.

The new Ownership rule will be that all prospects will be sent back to their respective draft clubs for a minimum of 2 years (obvious other than a McDavid type of prospect). Not matter how good they look during preseason games they get sent back down

This new rule will be called the Caufield rule because it WORKS! I know this rule is not perfect but I'm 100% positive it will develop a few more quality prospects and also savage some that would have been destroyed by rushing them to the NHL.

 

[Mrb1p]

Well I would assume if Ferrari or Renault decided to name someone a driver at 18, they didn't pick him up at the local grocery store.

Of course there has to be a base there, i’m not suggesting just any 18 year old can step into the NHL.

But I don’t think Slaf nor KK looked like complete amateurs either.


So also safe to assume you think Nick Suzuki, Kaiden Guhle and Cole Caufield would be much better today had they spent some time in the NHL?

No, they looked about single seater level under F1, which is like the lower pro leagues.

And no, because these players played in the CHL and NCAA and developped their skills there. They were overwhelmingly good for the league they were in. Slaf nor KK were ever overwhelmingly good in their respective leagues. You can assume that Guhle or CC or Suzuki or whoever were at a similar level to Bedard when they made the jump, so they could develop said skills.

 

[billy piton]

I doesn't matter who I wanted I was just talking about Cooley. I didn't want Slaf and Mesar just like I didn't want Reinbacher, but it is what it is. I have full faith in Bobrov.


Time to bring back McBust and Tinordi.

bobrov, timmins whoever... for the most part, drafting 18 yo kids is a crapshoot. in the nfl they draft 22-23 year old grown men and still can't figure out regurarly who will be the best ones. it's luck more than anything.

 

[417]

No, they looked about single seater level under F1, which is like the lower pro leagues.

Meh not sure I agree. Especially not in Kotkaniemi’s case.

And no, because these players played in the CHL and NCAA and developped their skills there. They were overwhelmingly good for the league they were in. Slaf nor KK were ever overwhelmingly good in their respective leagues. You can assume that Guhle or CC or Suzuki or whoever were at a similar level to Bedard when they made the jump, so they could develop said skills.

So which is it? Do players need AHL seasoning or not?

Because a few posts before you told me that most do unless they're like Bedard.

Now you’re telling me that they can bypass the AHL all together if they go play 40 odd games in the CHL or NCAA.

Like I said above, you can’t argue both of those things.

Post draft year games played for:

Caufield: 67 games in the NCAA
Guhle: 44 CHL games + playoffs (spread out over 2 years)
Suzuki: 123 CHL games + playoffs

So these are the games and experience that made it ok for them to bypass the AHL?

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Would still send him in the ahl.

 

[Mrb1p]

Meh not sure I agree. Especially not in Kotkaniemi’s case.

So which is it? Do players need AHL seasoning or not?

Because a few posts before you told me that most do unless they're like Bedard.

Now you’re telling me that they can bypass the AHL all together if they go play 40 odd games in the CHL or NCAA.

Like I said above, you can’t argue both of those things.

They need seasoning no matter where, just not in the NHL. Sometimes euro pro leagues, AHL or NCAA is too high.

 

[billy piton]

...or you can draft the smaller player with more skills and trade him in 3-4 years for a proven/established 6'3' stud instead of gambling on a 'maybe one day will be a stud' when your team is ready to compete seriously for the Cup.

how many proven 6'3' studs have been traded in the last 10 years? very, very few...

 

[cave troll]

bobrov, timmins whoever... for the most part, drafting 18 yo kids is a crapshoot. in the nfl they draft 22-23 year old grown men and still can't figure out regurarly who will be the best ones. it's luck more than anything.

You know that's not possible in NHL where they draft hard from Europe too.
Set the age limit to 22 and 90% of CHL, USHL kids will decide for 4 years in Europe where top kids start pro hockey at 18 instead of college hockey to be 100% ready for NHL.

 

[417]

They need seasoning no matter where, just not in the NHL. Sometimes euro pro leagues, AHL or NCAA is too high.

Fair.

I think there's a huge difference between playing amateur hockey in the CHL and pro hockey in Europe or in the AHL.

So do the leagues given that euros can play in the AHL post draft (1st round picks only I believe) because they recognize that a lot of them are already playing pro hockey in Europe.

But again fair, I certainly have a better understanding of why you're so adamant about the AHL route though it still seems a bit convoluted but I digress.

I personally believe that “seasoning” can and does happen in the NHL all the time, it's just fans/media tend to mix their own expectations with that process and it blurrs the lines.

 

[billy piton]

You know that's not possible in NHL where they draft hard from Europe too.
Set the age limit to 22 and 90% of CHL, USHL kids will decide for 4 years in Europe where top kids start pro hockey at 18 instead of college hockey to be 100% ready for NHL.

i don't suggest change of the draft age limit, jut pointing out that is extremley difficult to project potential of 18yo boys. there is no wayne gretzky among head scouts

 

[cave troll]

i don't suggest change of the draft age limit, jut pointing out that is extremley difficult to project potential of 18yo boys. there is no wayne gretzky among head scouts

Yeah, but when we look at 1OA, I'll say stats are 2 to 3 megabusts in 20 years.
From 1980 to 2020. Wickenheiser, Daigle, Stefan, Yakupov.
I'll add DiPietro to the list too.
So there is a around 90% chance that your 1OA won't bust. I won't say it's scouting's only fault for that 10%, but I dearly hope we didn't draft in that 10%.

 

[Guess]

Let me correct that: there is no point in wanting a tank, full stop.

Ideally, but people have to have something they can look forward to (if the season is really bad). It's a coping mechanism.

 

[Revansky]

Is the analogy here that if you're an F1 driver and you're having difficulty on the circuit, driving in NASCAR for a few weeks will make you better prepared for your F1 races?

Don't understand your point as I don't think the situation are similar. And there's developmental and lower tier competition level in racing too which would mean that for some progressing gradually is a better course of action.

Again, i think the argument that development could be impacted when difficulty is too high, is a valid one. Doesn't mean each individual will react to difficulty the same way and doesn't mean that AHL is the only valid option for Slaf. He's improved from last year so I'm not in the camp that he cannot get better by being in the NHL. But at some point, if he's not producing, and he's searching himself, don't know why AHL isn't option that's look upon. A lot of players benefitted from that approach. Caufield is the most recent example.

 

[DAChampion]

Suzuki played in CHL
Guhke played in the CHL
Caufield played in the NCAA

So is the argument then that the CHL and NCAA, are better prep leagues for the NHL than the AHL?

Cause you can't have it both ways. The argument I was having related to guys needing some AHL seasoning….none of those guys had any, but now we’re arguing the extra year (and in Guhle’s case we’re talking about 44 CHL games, Caufield even less NCAA games post draft year) is what made the difference???

Every player has different choices.

CHL players like Suzuki and Guhle are not even allowed into the AHL until they are 20, so it's not an option for them. By the time they're 20, in many cases the combination of maturation, CHL experience, and WJC experience makes them ready for the NHL.

Caulfield got two years in the NCAA. Some people thought that he was ready after the first year, but from what I recall the Bergevin administration sent him back to the NCAA for another year to work on his all around game. I thought that was a good decision.

For Slafkovsky, he went straight to the NHL even though Finland and Laval were options.

 

[tazsub3]

May be true of some posters, but far from most. Most posters that are not being Slaf's cheerleaders want him in the the AHL, NOT because he's terrible, but because want him to have the opportunity to develop his skills, and especially get his confidence back.


How did we get Slaf? How did Chicago get Bedard? How did Edmonton get McDavid?

Those high ceiling guys are very rarely available through a trade, and cost an arm and a leg. If we want talent, we have to suck for a few years, no way around it. I've watched this team be average at best for too long, I want it to be talented. I want the Habs to be build like Tampa, not a bunch of hard working grinders making the playoffs thanks to their goalie.

Don’t get me wrong , I am not arguing against tanking I am arguing about the people shutting on slaf for not scoring as a 19 yo yet claiming for the team to yank

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

They need seasoning no matter where, just not in the NHL. Sometimes euro pro leagues, AHL or NCAA is too high.

Even though I got some hate, I stated a week ago that before sending him down, I'd at least give him a short stint with Suzuki and Caufield first to see how he performs with good linemates instead of low-IQ Anderson and wish-he-was-a-centre Newhook. The first game looked good but he needs to do that consistently. If he can then leave him. If he can't, then AHL time plus world Juniors is what's probably best for him

 

[MasterD]

Don’t get me wrong , I am not arguing against tanking I am arguing about the people shutting on slaf for not scoring as a 19 yo yet claiming for the team to yank

I know. I'm that guy.

You need to understand they're two different issues. Slaf isn't showing what we hope he can become, and should be in the AHL to improve skills and confidence. AND we should tank to get more high end potential guys.

 

[417]

Don't understand your point as I don't think the situation are similar. And there's developmental and lower tier competition level in racing too which would mean that for some progressing gradually is a better course of action.

Again, i think the argument that development could be impacted when difficulty is too high, is a valid one. Doesn't mean each individual will react to difficulty the same way and doesn't mean that AHL is the only valid option for Slaf. He's improved from last year so I'm not in the camp that he cannot get better by being in the NHL. But at some point, if he's not producing, and he's searching himself, don't know why AHL isn't option that's look upon.

Agreed here so all good!

A lot of players benefitted from that approach. Caufield is the most recent example.

I wouldn't say Caufield benefitted from his stint.

First off he only played a total of 8 games and his last stint was coming off the bad start with Ducharme, when he was recalled he still continued to struggle producing.

His production went up after MSL came on board and his usage increased. Which was still a few weeks after he was recalled.

 

[417]

Every player has different choices.

CHL players like Suzuki and Guhle are not even allowed into the AHL until they are 20, so it's not an option for them. By the time they're 20, in many cases the combination of maturation, CHL experience, and WJC experience makes them ready for the NHL.

How does this experience compare to Slafkovsky playing an entire year in a pro league, world championships and Olympics?

Is the former more meaningful than the latter? How is that even measured?

Caulfield got two years in the NCAA. Some people thought that he was ready after the first year, but from what I recall the Bergevin administration sent him back to the NCAA for another year to work on his all around game. I thought that was a good decision.

Sure, he went back to the NCAA because he had clear gains to make physically and he played another 35ish games in the NCAA.

He had some initial success in the NHL playoffs but struggled the next season under Ducharme, had a 6 game AHL stint, came back to the NHL…continued to struggle.

Then Ducharme was fired, MSL put him on the 1st line and POOF!

Was the 35 games in the NCAA he played more than a year prior more meaningful than the coaching change and increased ice time and opportunities?

For Slafkovsky, he went straight to the NHL even though Finland and Laval were options.

Yes they were options but were they the best options?

I don't know about how his old team in Finland develops players, I don't know their track record…Laval doesn't have a strong record of developing players either.

So they clearly thought the NHL and under their eye, was the best option for him.

 

[Mrb1p]

Fair.

I think there's a huge difference between playing amateur hockey in the CHL and pro hockey in Europe or in the AHL.

So do the leagues given that euros can play in the AHL post draft (1st round picks only I believe) because they recognize that a lot of them are already playing pro hockey in Europe.

But again fair, I certainly have a better understanding of why you're so adamant about the AHL route though it still seems a bit convoluted but I digress.

I personally believe that “seasoning” can and does happen in the NHL all the time, it's just fans/media tend to mix their own expectations with that process and it blurrs the lines.

Think of it as having enough money in the bank before you move to your dream location. You can make money in all locations, and some will require more money to go from one place to another.

In that case, the money overhead would be the talent disparity between you and competition (Or output, instead of talent.) Without getting into too much economy, one would need more money the weaker the currency is, and some places might have close to equal values.

Thats roughly how I'd rank these leagues:
For junior leagues that are not major, (No CHL, and Id say USHL tip-toes here), you'd need to be the best player in the league to make the jump right away, and even then I don't think you could. I can't really think of a player going from USHL, AJHL, BCHL, J20 or U20 Liiga and making the NHL, but the talent level is weaker and rarer.

For junior majors (USHL tip-toed and CHL), you'd need to be one of the best players... Think Suzuki in his final year, Guhle, Xhekaj vs say Mailloux, Barron, Davidson and Mesar.

For NCAA, you'd need to be at a similar level to CHL, but the league is slightly better than average CHL, so I rank it higher. Think of Makar, Fox, Caufield vs Harris, Struble, etc. Of course, there's always a case by case, and especially when it comes to players with big asterisks. Size and speed are the biggest ones, sometimes the jump is just too big for small players, like Farrell.

Then there's the euro pro leagues that would mostly all rank similarly-ish between NCAA and AHL. Slovakia, DEL, Extraliga, NL, Liiga, SHL and KHL.

Then there's AHL.

The further up the list you are, the better player you need to be in your respective league. In Slafkovsky's case, the jump generally requires you to be the best player on your team to make an impact right away in the NHL and to be able to keep learning at the rate you should learn.

Examples:
Rantanen was the best player on his team, then went to AHL and broke records and then started in the NHL. He never had "adapt" his play style, he learned to impose his playstyle on the NHL.
Hintz was the same, even if he took longer.
Teravainen followed the same route, but had a hard time to impose his playstyle in the NHL, he adapted in other ways. Size and skating both played a role in this.
Barkov and Heiskanen were both elite prospects coming out of their Liiga season, they dominated there and were good enough and had a clear defined play style that allowed them to have success right away.

 

[DAChampion]

How does this experience compare to Slafkovsky playing an entire year in a pro league, world championships and Olympics?

Is the former more meaningful than the latter? How is that even measured?

Sure, he went back to the NCAA because he had clear gains to make physically and he played another 35ish games in the NCAA.

He had some initial success in the NHL playoffs but struggled the next season under Ducharme, had a 6 game AHL stint, came back to the NHL…continued to struggle.

Then Ducharme was fired, MSL put him on the 1st line and POOF!

Was the 35 games in the NCAA he played more than a year prior more meaningful than the coaching change and increased ice time and opportunities?


Yes they were options but were they the best options?

I don't know about how his old team in Finland develops players, I don't know their track record…Laval doesn't have a strong record of developing players either.

So they clearly thought the NHL and under their eye, was the best option for him.

In the case of Cauldield, what I recall is he also worked on strength training. It's easier to do with the lighter NCAA schedule. The NHL involves an exception travel and play load with lots of different time zones, it's harder on the body.