Value of: JT Miller to the Leafs.

[TheScandal89]

As much as I'd hate to trade more 1sts, JT at 50% (2.625 cap hit) for a season and 3/4s would be tempting, its really the only way Dubas could add an elite talent with some term due to poor cap and asset management.

I would say this years 1st would be guaranteed and the 2023 would be conditional to if the Leafs win a round in the 2 years they have him lol.

We have some prospects in Robertson, Niemla, Steeves, Hirovnen, Amirov and now Ho-Sang who hopefully will fill out the roster while the core is intact, which I assume ends if Matthews leaves in 3 years. So you should be in win now because a player like Miller will increase our chances to win and it could very well influence Matthews decision to stay or go.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I would gladly give 2 firsts and lily for him if not more If van retained

Why upset what we have?

It would be telling if a thread was "JT Miller back to NYR", that would be the truth.

 

[Pyrophorus]

That's a bad comparison because Pod hasn't been on the Canucks 4th line since they realized how good he is. He's been on the 2nd/3rd lines. Liljegren is on the Leafs bottom pairing, and it's not like he has a bunch of studs infront of him that make it harder to move up.

Liljegren being better than those bums doesn't mean anything. I remember when you guys called Holl and Dermott top 4 defenseman.

Better D, than all but 2 teams so far.

 

[Pyrophorus]

As much as I'd hate to trade more 1sts, JT at 50% (2.625 cap hit) for a season and 3/4s would be tempting, its really the only way Dubas could add an elite talent with some term due to poor cap and asset management.

I would say this years 1st would be guaranteed and the 2023 would be conditional to if the Leafs win a round in the 2 years they have him lol.

We have some prospects in Robertson, Niemla, Steeves, Hirovnen, Amirov and now Ho-Sang who hopefully will fill out the roster while the core is intact, which I assume ends if Matthews leaves in 3 years. So you should be in win now because a player like Miller will increase our chances to win and it could very well influence Matthews decision to stay or go.

You want to trade 1sts, that's fine.
Just not for Miller.

 

[Cogburn]

We all knew the deal with Miller. He likes to win, and wants to win, and as late as the end of last season, he was showing leadership I didn't expect of him. Now we have a locker room full of under performers, an organization that can't find it's ******* with both hands, a map and a flashlight, and he's a cancer? Any thing to try to think your team gets a steal of a deal, I guess.

 

[lukeleim]

Vancouver Canucks
Petr Mrazek 3.8mil
Nick Ritchie 2.5mil
Travis Dermott 1.5mil
Rodion Amirov
Leafs’ first-round pick of 2023

Toronto Maple Leafs
JT Miller 5.25mil
Jaroslav Halak 1.5mil
Luke Schenn .85mil
Jets’ third-round pick of 2022
Canucks’ fourth-round pick of 2023

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Vancouver Canucks
Petr Mrazek 3.8mil
Nick Ritchie 2.5mil
Travis Dermott 1.5mil
Rodion Amirov
Leafs’ first-round pick of 2023

Toronto Maple Leafs
JT Miller 5.25mil
Jaroslav Halak 1.5mil
Luke Schenn .85mil
Jets’ third-round pick of 2022
Canucks’ fourth-round pick of 2023

Awful. Need quality not a bunch of quantity junk.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I would gladly give 2 firsts and lily for him if not more If van retained

Not a chance lily moves. Contributing ELC players are gold to this team.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Ok, tell me where I'm wrong about Liljegren the beast.

Liljegren has progressed as expected, his stats back that up no matter how you look at it. 3rd pair at best? It's more 3rd pairing at worst. Sandin can play the right side and Niemala is a very nice prospect, not that you know shit about him. But yeah, I guess none of them fit the Canucks because of reasons.

 

[kanucks25]

Vancouver Canucks
Petr Mrazek 3.8mil
Nick Ritchie 2.5mil
Travis Dermott 1.5mil
Rodion Amirov
Leafs’ first-round pick of 2023

Toronto Maple Leafs
JT Miller 5.25mil
Jaroslav Halak 1.5mil
Luke Schenn .85mil
Jets’ third-round pick of 2022
Canucks’ fourth-round pick of 2023

Uh. You must have forgot to add Nylander on the Leafs' side.

 

[BlueBaron]

Counter
2022 1st + Amirov/Robertson + prospect not named Knies/Niemela/Tverberg

I'd do that and maybe an off year second. Does the math work with Ritchie going back?

 

[seanlinden]

Honestly... if Miller-to-Toronto is a thing, it's probably not Ritchie going the other way as the cap-balancer, but rather, Kerfoot.

Miller is as good / better centre than Kerfoot, and would likely occupy the exact same role that Kerfoot does (top 6 winger that is also the "backup" top 6 C). Ritchie, with his size, serves a different "purpose" for the Leafs in terms of size. Beyond that, I think the deal probably would have to shake out along the lines of:

Kerfoot
Dermott
2022 1st Rounder (TOR)
2023 4th Rounder (TOR)
Prospect Such as Hirvonen/Abruzzese,
Conditional 2024 3rd Rounder (TOR) if the Leafs make it to the final 4 in either of the next 2 years.

for

Miller (50% Retained, Maybe less to match Kerfoot's AAV)
Schenn
2022 3rd Rounder (WPG)

If you want to boil it down to "draft pick equivalent value", it's probably a 1st and 2 2nds... with the real question being where Vancouver sees themselves in the next 2 years. Are they blowing it up again? or are they looking at this being an option to retool a bit. Dermott & Kerfoot may be valuable to a retool given their age and the fact that they both have another year under contract.

 

[kanucks25]

Honestly... if Miller-to-Toronto is a thing, it's probably not Ritchie going the other way as the cap-balancer, but rather, Kerfoot.

Miller is as good / better centre than Kerfoot, and would likely occupy the exact same role that Kerfoot does (top 6 winger that is also the "backup" top 6 C). Ritchie, with his size, serves a different "purpose" for the Leafs in terms of size. Beyond that, I think the deal probably would have to shake out along the lines of:

Kerfoot
Dermott
2022 1st Rounder (TOR)
2023 4th Rounder (TOR)
Prospect Such as Hirvonen/Abruzzese,
Conditional 2024 3rd Rounder (TOR) if the Leafs make it to the final 4 in either of the next 2 years.

for

Miller (50% Retained, Maybe less to match Kerfoot's AAV)
Schenn
2022 3rd Rounder (WPG)

If you want to boil it down to "draft pick equivalent value", it's probably a 1st and 2 2nds... with the real question being where Vancouver sees themselves in the next 2 years. Are they blowing it up again? or are they looking at this being an option to retool a bit.

Kerfoot does nothing for Vancouver. We rather not have his cap.

Whatever cap dump you're giving back to us in this deal should be treated as exactly that - a cap dump, it won't add any value to the Leafs' side of this trade. The value has to purely come from the picks/prospects you give up.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Honestly... if Miller-to-Toronto is a thing, it's probably not Ritchie going the other way as the cap-balancer, but rather, Kerfoot.

Miller is as good / better centre than Kerfoot, and would likely occupy the exact same role that Kerfoot does (top 6 winger that is also the "backup" top 6 C). Ritchie, with his size, serves a different "purpose" for the Leafs in terms of size. Beyond that, I think the deal probably would have to shake out along the lines of:

Kerfoot
Dermott
2022 1st Rounder (TOR)
2023 4th Rounder (TOR)
Prospect Such as Hirvonen/Abruzzese,
Conditional 2024 3rd Rounder (TOR) if the Leafs make it to the final 4 in either of the next 2 years.

for

Miller (50% Retained, Maybe less to match Kerfoot's AAV)
Schenn
2022 3rd Rounder (WPG)

If you want to boil it down to "draft pick equivalent value", it's probably a 1st and 2 2nds... with the real question being where Vancouver sees themselves in the next 2 years. Are they blowing it up again? or are they looking at this being an option to retool a bit. Dermott & Kerfoot may be valuable to a retool given their age and the fact that they both have another year under contract.

Kerfoot is not going anywhere

 

[Nylanderthal]

Kerfoot does nothing for Vancouver. We rather not have his cap.

Whatever cap dump you're giving back to us in this deal should be treated as exactly that - a cap dump, it won't add any value to the Leafs' side of this trade. The value has to purely come from the picks/prospects you give up.

Kerfoot would be about your fourth best forward….. local guy, good contract. DimJin would be so lucky to get him in a deal like this.

 

[seanlinden]

Kerfoot does nothing for Vancouver. We rather not have his cap.

Whatever cap dump you're giving back to us in this deal should be treated as exactly that - a cap dump, it won't add any value to the Leafs' side of this trade. The value has to purely come from the picks/prospects you give up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Canucks centres (with Miller gone) are Pettersson (a likely legit #1), Horvat (a very solid 2-way #2 guy), and Jason Dickinson, a player with a career high of 22 points.

Seems to me that if you're going to use Horvat in tough matchups, that Kerfoot would be a perfect fit to give the Canucks a reasonably balanced group at centre.

Furthermore, with a team who's core is Pettersson (23), Boeser (24), Horvat (26), Garland (25), Hughes (22), OEL (30), Myers (31) and Demko (25); it seems unlikely that the Canucks go full-rebuild focusing solely on picks & prospects.

 

[seanlinden]

Kerfoot is not going anywhere

Honestly, if the Leafs are getting JT Miller, he really should be.

Kerfoot is a good player, but one of the biggest elements of "value" he brings to the Leafs is the fact that he's a competent 2nd line centre who can succeed with skilled wingers, whereas Kampf is somewhat of a black hole in that regard.

If Miller comes in, he replaces all of that value from Kerfoot.

Furthermore, Nick Ritchie on his own doesn't create enough cap even for Miller at 50%. Kerfoot does.

 

[kanucks25]

Kerfoot would be about your fourth best forward….. local guy, good contract. DimJin would be so lucky to get him in a deal like this.

You don't just line guys up by their overalls in NHL 2022 and take the best 21 or whatever.

There's roster construction and cap to consider.

At this point, Kerfoot doesn't really move the needle for us.

Let me give you an example:

Would you take Myers off us for a 3rd straight up? He'd be your 3rd best RD right now.

 

[Nucker42]

Vancouver Canucks
Petr Mrazek 3.8mil
Nick Ritchie 2.5mil
Travis Dermott 1.5mil
Rodion Amirov
Leafs’ first-round pick of 2023

Toronto Maple Leafs
JT Miller 5.25mil
Jaroslav Halak 1.5mil
Luke Schenn .85mil
Jets’ third-round pick of 2022
Canucks’ fourth-round pick of 2023

Lol…the only decent piece is Dermott and he’s a left d which is not what the Canucks need. Sure they get a bottom 1st round pick but they give up 2 picks?

JT Miller likely to be the number 1 tradable asset in the league. The package starts with a 1st and top prospect.

And Halak is playing well, he’s worth a 4th maybe a 3rd. Step it up.

 

[kanucks25]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Canucks centres (with Miller gone) are Pettersson (a likely legit #1), Horvat (a very solid 2-way #2 guy), and Jason Dickinson, a player with a career high of 22 points.

Seems to me that if you're going to use Horvat in tough matchups, that Kerfoot would be a perfect fit to give the Canucks a reasonably balanced group at centre.

Is Kerfoot a legit shutdown 3C in the NHL? Not as far as I know. That's really the only type of center we're interested in right now.

Furthermore, with a team who's core is Pettersson (23), Boeser (24), Horvat (26), Garland (25), Hughes (22), OEL (30), Myers (31) and Demko (25); it seems unlikely that the Canucks go full-rebuild focusing solely on picks & prospects.

They ought to. We have no way of contending within the next few years because of how Benning has hamstrung us cap-wise.

Who knows what the new management team will do but the consensus amongst us fans is that we need to "restart" the rebuild here lol.

 

[seanlinden]

You don't just line guys up by their overalls in NHL 2022 and take the best 21 or whatever.

There's roster construction and cap to consider.

At this point, Kerfoot doesn't really move the needle for us.

Let me give you an example:

Would you take Myers off us for a 3rd straight up? He'd be your 3rd best RD right now.

Unless you find a 1-for-1 hockey deal, which is super-rare these days, but may be possible given that Miller has an extra year; it's unlikely that the Canucks get an immediate "needle mover" for Miller. It'll end up being a combination of players that can help in different ways immediately, along with some longer term upside.

 

[kanucks25]

Unless you find a 1-for-1 hockey deal, which is super-rare these days, but may be possible given that Miller has an extra year; it's unlikely that the Canucks get an immediate "needle mover" for Miller. It'll end up being a combination of players that can help in different ways immediately, along with some longer term upside.

I agree we wouldn't get 1-for-1 value back from a roster player, because the Leafs have nobody that they are willing/can give up that moves the needle for us.

That's why I said - the value needs to come purely from picks and prospects and any roster player you give back to us will be to balance the cap only and not to add extra value (unless we're flipping Kerfoot or it's a 3-way trade or something).

 

[seanlinden]

Is Kerfoot a legit shutdown 3C in the NHL? Not as far as I know. That's really the only type of center we're interested in right now.



They ought to. We have no way of contending within the next few years because of how Benning has hamstrung us cap-wise.

Who knows what the new management team will do but the consensus amongst us fans is that we need to "restart" the rebuild here lol.

Certainly not. He's a mid-tier 2nd line C, with solid 2-way play, but lacks the "edge" and faceoff skill that shutdown Cs need.

That being said, with Bo Horvat in the mix, there's certainly an argument to be made that a shutdown C isn't necessarily what the Canucks need. Similar to Boston, who uses Bergeron as both the #1C and shutdown C, or St. Louis who use ROR and Schenn; that may be the best path/fit for Horvat.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

JT Miller @ 50% Retained
for
Ilya Mikheyev
Dermott/Holl
Topi Niemela
2022 1st

Miller - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Ritchie - Kampf - Kase
Bunting - Spezza - Simmonds

 

[seanlinden]

I agree we wouldn't get 1-for-1 value back from a roster player, because the Leafs have nobody that they are willing/can give up that moves the needle for us.

That's why I said - the value needs to come purely from picks and prospects and any roster player you give back to us will be to balance the cap only and not to add extra value (unless we're flipping Kerfoot or it's a 3-way trade or something).

I'm not talking about isolating to the Leafs, if Vancouver's shopping him, they'll talk to most teams in the league. I'm simply saying that in general... from any team... doing 1-for-1 hockey deals is very rare.


Ultimately, the value the Canucks recieve (from any team) is likely going to come from a combination of picks/prospects, and the roster players they get in return. Kerfoot may not be the best possible fit for "roster player in return", but he would represent value in the deal.