Value of: JT Miller to the Leafs.

[elitepete]

Miller is a substantially better offensive player than Kerfoot is. Kerfoot, for the most part, has been fairly irrelevant to his line's production this year (and in the past). He's a guy who relies on his linemates to be offensive catalysts. Miller is a guy who can drive a line.

Furthermore, I think you have to look a little closer at the composition of the Leafs roster... especially on that left side.... you've got:
- Kerfoot who's 5'10, 181lbs
- Bunting who's 6'0, 186lbs
- Engvall who's 6'5, 215lbs; but plays like he's 6'0 185.
- Mikheyev who's 6'2, 192lbs
- Ritchie who's 6'3, 235lbs.

The goal for the Leafs is not just to get out of the first round, but to win a cup. To do that, you're going to need to beat 4 different teams, and chances are, throughout a run, there will be a series where a team is clogging up the middle of the ice consistently, and a guy like Nick Ritchie is going to be a much needed force. JT Miller is certainly better than anything else the Leafs have on the left side, but he brings a lot of the same attributes as what the Leafs already have in their lineup, both on the left side, and in the middle/on the right.

Miller is more of a skilled power winger than a purely skilled winger. He is plenty physical and built like a tank (6'1, 220). His problem is that the Canucks organisation thinks he is a combination of Nathan Mackinnon and Mark Stone, and deploys/depends on him as such.

 

[John Mandalorian]

To be fair, whether it's Leaf's fans or others, the whole thing that instigated this conversation was comments cited by sources (anonymouns or otherwise) that there were cancers on the team and they need to make a move to get rid of the cancer(s). There's probably a lot of truth to this based on how the media reported it. Nevertheless, you cant ignore what precipitated this interest in JT Miller. Whether it's Toronto, Colorado, or whoever...they have assets to spend but based on reasonable asks in specific situations.

 

[elitepete]

I think that was pretty close to what I originally proposed, I think a Vancouver fan wanted the 2nd turned into Niemela

You could also switch Niemela with a different prospect. The type of prospects we need most are rhd that are good at defending, forwards with a combo of skill+size/physicality, good defensive forwards, and forwards that are just fast in general.

 

[Edgelord]

You could also switch Niemela with a different prospect. The type of prospects we need most are rhd that are good at defending, forwards with a combo of skill+size/physicality, good defensive forwards, and forwards that are just fast in general.

i just made a thread where I offer Mrazek to the Oilers to see if I can snag an asset that you guys like enough that I can take either Amirov or the 1st out.

 

[elitepete]

To be fair, whether it's Leaf's fans or others, the whole thing that instigated this conversation was comments cited by sources (anonymouns or otherwise) that there were cancers on the team and they need to make a move to get rid of the cancer(s). There's probably a lot of truth to this based on how the media reported it. Nevertheless, you cant ignore what precipitated this interest in JT Miller. Whether it's Toronto, Colorado, or whoever...they have assets to spend but based on reasonable asks in specific situations.

99% of the rumours sound like something a 12 year old made up, so I would say they are bullshit based on that.

Something more realistic is that the older veterans (Miller for sure, and likely Horvat) are upset with the younger players based on multiple possible things like how they are playing this year, or something off the ice.

 

[John Mandalorian]

99% of the rumours sound like something a 12 year old made up, so I would say they are bullshit based on that.

Something more realistic is that the older veterans (Miller for sure, and likely Horvat) are upset with the younger players based on multiple possible things like how they are playing this year, or something off the ice.

I agree with the 2nd part. But where I disagree is if a rogue reporter hits on an unflattering truth and then a lot of "so called" reputable reporters share the same narrative at the behest of the organization, it looks extremely fishy.

 

[HockeyWooot]

He’d look great with Matthews/JT, but I don’t think the Leafs have the right assets coming back short of one of the top-4

 

[Leaf Fans]

To be fair, whether it's Leaf's fans or others, the whole thing that instigated this conversation was comments cited by sources (anonymouns or otherwise) that there were cancers on the team and they need to make a move to get rid of the cancer(s). There's probably a lot of truth to this based on how the media reported it. Nevertheless, you cant ignore what precipitated this interest in JT Miller. Whether it's Toronto, Colorado, or whoever...they have assets to spend but based on reasonable asks in specific situations.

It was Sat Shah from Sportsnet Vancouver. HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
It wouldn't be a Leaf fan making it up.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

No need to be offended just because I don’t like Liljegren. If Sandin can play the right side then he is a fit.

Who said I was offended? You clearly don't know anything about the players we're talking about, so I'd just say you're ignorant.

 

[Twine Tickler]

That's a bad comparison because Pod hasn't been on the Canucks 4th line since they realized how good he is. He's been on the 2nd/3rd lines. Liljegren is on the Leafs bottom pairing, and it's not like he has a bunch of studs infront of him that make it harder to move up.

Liljegren being better than those bums doesn't mean anything. I remember when you guys called Holl and Dermott top 4 defenseman.

Podkolzin, despite being a good young player with a lot of promise, only has 5 pts in 20 GP. Not exactly numbers you'd want drawn up from your 2nd/3rd liners.

to put it in perspective, 38 year old Jason Spezza, Defensive minded David Kampf, and 4th liner Wayne Simmonds all have more points than Vasili.

Which kind of goes back to my original point. If I were foolish enough to think that a 20 year old [Podkolzin] playing in his first NHL season would stay in his current role for the entirety of his career I would be dead ass wrong. Podkolzin will likely progress into a more meaningful role in due time. Same with Timmy. Not sure why anyone would label Timmy as a bottom pairing guy as if he has plateaued over his 27 NHL GP

He's 22 years old, and currently plays on the bottom pairing of a team that is allowing the 2nd fewest goals/GP in the NHL. Anyone who has eyes, and has watched a Leafs game this year would be able to tell you Timmy has been absolutely outstanding. Not to mention anyone who watched him with the Marlies for the last 2-3 years.

I never suggested Podkolzin is actually a 4th line grinder. Someone on here suggested that a package involving Timmy as part of a return is not good because he is a bottom pairing guy. Insinuating that he will never progress beyond that. Which is stupid. Just as stupid as me insinuating Podkolzin is a 4th line grinder. It was intended to be a stupid statement, to illustrate just how dumb the original claim of Timmy as a bottom pairing guy was.

As for Leaf fans thinking their young players are better than they actually are, it's almost as if you didn't see where I am from. Remember this dumb f***ing market that stitched a Gretzky clapper next to a Pettey clapper 2 years ago and talked about a single slap shot goal for almost 2 weeks? Remember when this fanbase almost burnt the city down after trading away future "franchise centremen" Cody Hodgson away, only to see him out of the show 4 years later? Remember when "the peoples show" had a poll this summer suggesting Bo Horvat should make team Canada over Mitch Marner? to which countless morons called in to provide their idiotically biased opinions.

This shit happens for every fanbase... Vancouver fans are every bit as obnoxious as Leaf fans.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Who said I was offended? You clearly don't know anything about the players we're talking about, so I'd just say you're ignorant.

Side note, can Sandin play the right side? How’s he looked this year?

 

[Boondock]

looking at this thread is hilarious.

Everyone yells about leafs fans over valuing our players, but then COMPLETELY undervalue any leafs players.

the proposals some people have here would be too much for even like McDavid, let alone JT F-ing Miller.

I know Canucks fans hate us but jeez guys, maybe lay off the booze before making proposals

either way, JT Miller is not the player the leafs need. Too expensive, rumoured to be a locker room problem and not the kind of player we need to play with Matthews/Marner.

absolutely 0% interest in Miller. Garland on the other hand…

By whom - Basement dwelling HFBoards posters. Great source, are you getting your news from rumble.com?

 

[Boondock]

It's not just that some Leafies don't want them to give that much, we also just don't really want the player.

Some people are head-over-heels for J.T. Miller, but not all Leafs' fans are.

From the sounds of it, not all the Canucks' players are, either.[/QUOTE]
Source? Everything from players and agents claim the media reports of a riff between Miller and Horvat or others in the room are false.

 

[Boondock]

No. That's not how this discussion works.

100% of what you said is dead wrong. You are obviously using google translate because your entire posts are filled with odd completely wrong ideas, theories and facts.

Am I doing this right? fact less claims as truth and now you have to prove me wrong or I'm right?

 

[Boondock]

I HIGHLY doubt it.

The Leafs had 3 draft picks in 2021, two of which were in the 5th and 6th rounds.

They are already down to 3 draft picks in 2022 and are short a 7th rounder in 2023.

While I do believe that one of the Leafs 2022 picks would be in play for the right player (JT Miller at 50% retained would fall into that category IMO), I think they're going to be quite hesitant to do a "Straight picks" type of deal.

More likely, a deal would have to be something along the lines of:

To Vancouver: 2022 1st, 2023 4th, Nick Ritchie, Travis Dermott, Prospect (Excl Amirov, Robertson, Niemla & Knies)
To Toronto: Miller (50% Retained), 2022 3rd (Winnipeg's), Maybe Luke Schenn??

Maybe Kerfoot instead of Ritchie given that they'd occupy quite similar roles / positions.

Really - 50% retention a top line forward for a late 1st, a dump, a LHD (look at roster Canucks have LHD - lets suggest another that has been on the block all season) and a B or C prospect, but not one of the Leafs top 5 prospects.

You knew when you posted this it was going to be a stupid low-ball offer. Some people like to play the heel.

 

[Boondock]

Liljegren is a bottom pairing defensman in the same regard as podkolzin is a 4th line grinder.

don’t confuse lack of NHL experience as lack of talent. Liljegren is probably already a better player than Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, tucker poolman, and any other scrub on the Canucks back end not named Hughes and OEL

Thats like saying this moldy bread tastes better than this raw rotting chicken

 

[John Mandalorian]

100% of what you said is dead wrong. You are obviously using google translate because your entire posts are filled with odd completely wrong ideas, theories and facts.

Am I doing this right? fact less claims as truth and now you have to prove me wrong or I'm right?

LOL

 

[seanlinden]

Really - 50% retention a top line forward for a late 1st, a dump, a LHD (look at roster Canucks have LHD - lets suggest another that has been on the block all season) and a B or C prospect, but not one of the Leafs top 5 prospects.

You knew when you posted this it was going to be a stupid low-ball offer. Some people like to play the heel.

If the Canucks don't want / need a first out of the deal, I can certainly see the Leafs parting with a top prospect.

As for the "LHD" -- Canucks have Hughes, OEL, and Kyle Burroughs.... sure, Hughes is great, and OEL is still pretty solid, but Travis Dermott is a fiarly substantial upgrade on Kyle Burroughs. He's also only 24 years old and shown the ability to play the right side.

Ultimately, I think Kerfoot makes more sense as the "salary" than Ritchie does. He's a better player, while Miller does everything that Kerfoot does, and if doing that, perhaps the Leafs can keep Dermott instead of having to do the Dermott-Schenn swap.

Maybe you do something along the lines of:
To Vancouver: Kerfoot, Robertson or Amirov, 2022 2nd Round Pick, 2023 3rd Round Pick
To Toronto: Miller @ 50% Retained, 2022 3rd Round Pick

If the Cancuks had a 2nd this year, then yes, forsure, give up Toronto's 1st and get Vancouver's 2nd back, and don't really have to value it on the same level as a Robertson/Amirov, but Toronto is already woefully short on picks, and Vancouvers 2nd best pick in the draft is Winnipeg's 3rd rounder.

 

[bossram]

can we swap Amirov for 2 2nd's?

This is certainly not any more attractive to Vancouver.

or 2022 1st+Niemela+SDA+2nd+Ritche?
or go 1st+Niemela+Ritche+2022 2nd+2023 2nd+2022 7th(if we deal the 1st and 2nd we may as well include the 7th so we can take the whole draft off lol)

I guess this is closer, but really three valuable pieces are what I'd want. Some combo of three of the 1st, Niemela, Liljegren, Amirov. Could perhaps be enticed to downgrade to someone like Knies, if there were additional picks coming back.

One piece too many, one of Niemela or Amirov + 1st + something small would be my offer with Ritchie the cap ballast
What if that last piece was conditional? It’s a 2nd that coverts to a first if the leafs win the cup or miller extends

That's a terrible offer for still having to take on Ritchie.

3 valuable pieces should be the price. See above, maybe consider downgrading one prospect if there are more picks coming back. Something like Niemela + Amirov/1st + Knies + conditional pick (start at 3rd, 2nd if they make CF, 1st if they make SCF).

 

[EquivalentStay]

By whom - Basement dwelling HFBoards posters. Great source, are you getting your news from rumble.com?

Seriously, the people spouting this garbage over and over are the main problem with this type of thing. Miller is an incredible player, and I would take him on the Leafs in an absolute heartbeat, and the people that wouldn't cause "he's a cancer" don't know their ass from their face.

 

[4thline]

If Nick Ritchie is traded it will at very least as a neutral piece, more likely as a valued component in the deal (more likely not traded). He had a rough start, and has been snake bitten since, but his physical presence and net front play have been positively impacting games, and he's one of the most feared fighters in the game. Career ~10% shooter running zero's on 36 shots.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Side note, can Sandin play the right side? How’s he looked this year?

He did play on the right side in junior, I'm not sure how often though. And the Leafs did consider putting him on that side at one point. He's been excellent this year. Looking more and more like a top 2 dman.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

If the Canucks don't want / need a first out of the deal, I can certainly see the Leafs parting with a top prospect.

As for the "LHD" -- Canucks have Hughes, OEL, and Kyle Burroughs.... sure, Hughes is great, and OEL is still pretty solid, but Travis Dermott is a fiarly substantial upgrade on Kyle Burroughs. He's also only 24 years old and shown the ability to play the right side.

Ultimately, I think Kerfoot makes more sense as the "salary" than Ritchie does. He's a better player, while Miller does everything that Kerfoot does, and if doing that, perhaps the Leafs can keep Dermott instead of having to do the Dermott-Schenn swap.

Maybe you do something along the lines of:
To Vancouver: Kerfoot, Robertson or Amirov, 2022 2nd Round Pick, 2023 3rd Round Pick
To Toronto: Miller @ 50% Retained, 2022 3rd Round Pick

If the Cancuks had a 2nd this year, then yes, forsure, give up Toronto's 1st and get Vancouver's 2nd back, and don't really have to value it on the same level as a Robertson/Amirov, but Toronto is already woefully short on picks, and Vancouvers 2nd best pick in the draft is Winnipeg's 3rd rounder.

First off, the offers you proposed are nowhere near Miller’s value. Once again we need quality not quantity or we will gladly hold onto him, he’s still young and has another year on his contract after this year.

Secondly, Kyle Burroughs is a RHD and is nowhere near our problem this season, he’s actually done a solid job as a #6 dman. We don’t want Kerfoot, Ritchie etc. We want a 1st and Top prospect or a Young future top RHD

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Like the player. Not willing to give up the price Canuck fans seem to want for him.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Miller would be an absolutely fantastic add for the Leafs, but I don't think they have/can afford the assets required to make it work cap-wise.