Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Typical Sens...going great for a few weeks, then boom!

I still stand by what I said earlier....plug Brass into Norris spot for a month or so. After that, it's Pinto's time to shine.

 

[Yak]

I hope he seeks out best athletic surgeons opinions for best advice on the best way to proceed so he can come back stronger then ever!

Mike Johnson had 3 shoulder surgeries and did not kill his career. Norris is physical beast and will get whatever will be best for his career.

Somehow I feel rehab will not be a option.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I would take full advantage and Kucherovize Norris
Vegas and Tampa would 100%
League is about winning and no one will gift us anything
We've been taken advantage of for years because we had no money (insert 2nd round draft picksssssss)
Bring someone else with the money save
Kane, O'reilly, Horvat, Meier or else

That's a perfectly good way to mortgage the future when there are other holes in the lineup that may require more attention. Even with Norris gone, it's very possible that C is not our biggest need.

We are good enough to weather the storm. Move Pinto up to 2C and look for a value deal on a 3rd line C. Assess where the team is at at the TDL and if we have a legitimate shot at a cup run bolster the lineup, if not don't waste assets on rentals.

 

[Alex1234]

That's a perfectly good way to mortgage the future when there are other holes in the lineup that may require more attention. Even with Norris gone, it's very possible that C is not our biggest need.

We are good enough to weather the storm. Move Pinto up to 2C and look for a value deal on a 3rd line C. Assess where the team is at at the TDL and if we have a legitimate shot at a cup run bolster the lineup, if not don't waste assets on rentals.

Yeah I meant at TDL if we look good
Thanks

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I would take full advantage and Kucherovize Norris
Vegas and Tampa would 100%
League is about winning and no one will gift us anything
We've been taken advantage of for years because we had no money (insert 2nd round draft picksssssss)
Bring someone else with the money saved
Kane, O'reilly, Horvat, Meier or else

Oh sure, Sens ownership can just start handing out blank cheques.. especially with our 12K attendance the other night.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

Oh sure, Sens ownership can just start handing out blank cheques.. especially with our 12K attendance the other night.

You probably said the same thing before the off season started and look at the money they have spent.

We have money and we make money when you factor in all the revenue streams.

 

[Alex1234]

Oh sure, Sens ownership can just start handing out blank cheques.. especially with our 12K attendance the other night.

You know the players mentionned are mostly next summer UFAs right?
The blank cheques is how much at the TDL for a Next summer UFA?
I bet not that much lol
If it doesnt pan out let them go july 1st
Whats the problem?

 

[Micklebot]

Oh sure, Sens ownership can just start handing out blank cheques.. especially with our 12K attendance the other night.

Norris goes to LTIR, insurance pays ~80% of his contract, we can add a rental closer to the deadline and we likely come out ahead in dollars spent compared to what was budgeted.

Ownership is trying to turn a corner and entice more people and businesses to buy season tickets so that we won't see 12k nights, you do that by putting together a good team, and giving fans a reason to be optimistic. We are on the right path, last year that game likely would have been 9k. The team needs to keep the momentum going, they can't let the Norris injury derail the entire season and let doubt creep back into the fans mindset if they want to continue to improve season ticket sales.

 

[Big Muddy]

Yeah I meant at TDL if we look good
Thanks

Are you the poster formerly known as Chantal Pinto? Maybe this is just a popular picture or avatar to use which is creating confusion?

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

For a lack of knowledge...what happens now to our cap with him out long term? Is his salary insured or are the Sens on the hook to pay it

 

[NyQuil]

For a lack of knowledge...what happens now to our cap with him out long term? Is his salary insured or are the Sens on the hook to pay it

Look up 2 posts.

 

[Alex1234]

Are you the poster formerly known as Chantal Pinto? Maybe this is just a popular picture or avatar to use which is creating confusion?

Changed my avatar to support his run at the Calder

 

[Golden_Jet]

For a lack of knowledge...what happens now to our cap with him out long term? Is his salary insured or are the Sens on the hook to pay it

Norris goes to LTIR, insurance pays ~80% of his contract, we can add a rental closer to the deadline and we likely come out ahead in dollars spent compared to what was budgeted.

Ownership is trying to turn a corner and entice more people and businesses to buy season tickets so that we won't see 12k nights, you do that by putting together a good team, and giving fans a reason to be optimistic. We are on the right path, last year that game likely would have been 9k. The team needs to keep the momentum going, they can't let the Norris injury derail the entire season and let doubt creep back into the fans mindset if they want to continue to improve season ticket sales.

That assumes his contract is insured, which we don’t know for sure. Usually teams have about 4 insured contracts, there is a good chance it is.
If he goes LTIR, would give us about 3.8 million in LTIR room, which isn’t much difference than without LTIR.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Look up 2 posts.

What would I do without you

 

[NyQuil]

What would I do without you

 

[Big Muddy]

Changed my avatar to support his run at the Calder

Ah OK.

Can I assume Chantal Pinto is Shane's sister? I know Shane has a sister named Brianna who evidently plays university softball (Wiki info). I guess I'm trying to unravel the picture for some unknown reason LOL.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Ah OK.

Can I assume Chantal Pinto is Shane's sister? I know Shane has a sister named Brianna who evidently plays university softball (Wiki info). I guess I'm trying to unravel the picture for some unknown reason LOL.

Oh it's literally just a faceapp haha. Pinto just has great genetics and soft features so it looks very natural haha.

 

[Big Muddy]

Oh it's literally just a faceapp haha. Pinto just has great genetics and soft features so it looks very natural haha.

Ah, OK.

 

[Micklebot]

That assumes his contract is insured, which we don’t know for sure. Usually teams have about 4 insured contracts, there is a good chance it is.
If he goes LTIR, would give us about 3.8 million in LTIR room, which isn’t much difference than without LTIR.

Unless they have changed how the league insurance plan works, 5 contracts or more can be insured, with the coverage lowering if a team opts to cover more than 5 players.

LTIR room only comes into play once we exceed our ACLS, ACLS is the cap ceiling minus the teams cap space at the time the player is placed on LTIR. So for us, 82.5 - about 4 = 78.5. we will have a LTIR salary pool equal to Norris' cap hit of 7.85 to use while Norris is on LTIR, so we can effectively replace him with another 7.85 mil player instead of only having ~4 mil in cap space.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Unless they have changed how the league insurance plan works, 5 contracts or more can be insured, with the coverage lowering if a team opts to cover more than 5 players.

LTIR room only comes into play once we exceed our ACLS, ACLS is the cap ceiling minus the teams cap space at the time the player is placed on LTIR. So for us, 82.5 - about 4 = 78.5. we will have a LTIR salary pool equal to Norris' cap hit of 7.85 to use while Norris is on LTIR, so we can effectively replace him with another 7.85 mil player instead of only having ~4 mil in cap space.

Teams can choose to only insure 2 contract if they want.

No that’s now how LTIR works. That’s how it works if you are at the cap.

If under the league cap.
Formula = (current team cap hit + cap hit of LTIR player) - league salary cap hit (82.5 this year).

So like I said about 3.8 million, as you use up the 4 .1 million, under the cap first.
Yes you get 7.95 in room, but you are now at 82.5 million, thus the 3.8 in used space.

 

[Micklebot]

Teams can choose to only insure 2 contract if they want.

Why would they ever do that, as I said unless the league has changed the insurance plan they have, the premium is base on the top 5 salaries on the team. Do you have any source for what you are saying? Here's an old one that speaks to what I've said, they've since switched to Giecko I think.

Concussions could ruin NHL teams if insurers pull coverage

If more NHL players continue to be sidelined with concussions, insurers may stop insuring players with brain injuries altogether.

www.thestar.com

"The NHL requires teams to insure roughly 80 per cent of the value of their top five player contracts through BWD Group, a New York insurance company. Rates have more than doubled from about 2 per cent in 2004 to more than 5 per cent of a contract’s value, Hubbard and others said."

No that’s now how LTIR works. That’s how it works if you are at the cap.

If under the league cap.
Formula = (current team cap hit + cap hit of LTIR player) - league salary cap hit (82.5 this year).

So like I said about 3.8 million, as you use up the 4 .1 million, under the cap first.
Yes you get 7.95 in room, but you are now at 82.5 million, thus the 3.8 in used space.

Here a link to cap friendly's FAQ on LTIR, has the calculations changed and they just haven't updated? I think you are misunderstanding what I explained (not that I explained it clearly mins you)

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Basic Equation Example
The league upper limit is $69M. A team has an averaged club salary of $68M and a player with a 35+ contract with an AAV of $5M ($3M cap hit and $2M in performance bonuses) becomes injured and the team places him on LTIR. The LTIR relief pools are calculated as follows:
AAV of LTIR player is $5M
Cap space = $69M - $68M = $1M
ACSL = $69M - $1M = $68M
LTIR relief:
Base salary relief pool: $3M
Performance bonus pool: $2M
Once the team operates above $68M, they have $3M in salary relief, and $2M in performance bonus relief pools.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Why would they ever do that, as I said unless the league has changed the insurance plan they have, the premium is base on the top 5 salaries on the team. Do you have any source for what you are saying? Here's an old one that speaks to what I've said, they've since switched to Giecko I think.

Concussions could ruin NHL teams if insurers pull coverage

If more NHL players continue to be sidelined with concussions, insurers may stop insuring players with brain injuries altogether.

www.thestar.com

"The NHL requires teams to insure roughly 80 per cent of the value of their top five player contracts through BWD Group, a New York insurance company. Rates have more than doubled from about 2 per cent in 2004 to more than 5 per cent of a contract’s value, Hubbard and others said."


Here a link to cap friendly's FAQ on LTIR, has the calculations changed and they just haven't updated? I think you are misunderstanding what I explained (not that I explained it clearly mins you)

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Basic Equation Example
The league upper limit is $69M. A team has an averaged club salary of $68M and a player with a 35+ contract with an AAV of $5M ($3M cap hit and $2M in performance bonuses) becomes injured and the team places him on LTIR. The LTIR relief pools are calculated as follows:
AAV of LTIR player is $5M
Cap space = $69M - $68M = $1M
ACSL = $69M - $1M = $68M
LTIR relief:
Base salary relief pool: $3M
Performance bonus pool: $2M
Once the team operates above $68M, they have $3M in salary relief, and $2M in performance bonus relief pools.

It works just like I described it, no need to confuse it with over 35 players and performance bonuses, since that doesn’t apply here.

Formula = (current team cap hit + cap hit of LTIR player) - league salary cap hit (82.5 this year)

The reason why Josh isn’t on LTIR yet, is because we currently have 4.5 million in cap room, if Josh goes on LTIR it becomes, 3.45 million in LTIR cap room. So at the moment LTIR would give us less room.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Why would they ever do that, as I said unless the league has changed the insurance plan they have, the premium is base on the top 5 salaries on the team. Do you have any source for what you are saying? Here's an old one that speaks to what I've said, they've since switched to Giecko I think.

Concussions could ruin NHL teams if insurers pull coverage

If more NHL players continue to be sidelined with concussions, insurers may stop insuring players with brain injuries altogether.

www.thestar.com

"The NHL requires teams to insure roughly 80 per cent of the value of their top five player contracts through BWD Group, a New York insurance company. Rates have more than doubled from about 2 per cent in 2004 to more than 5 per cent of a contract’s value, Hubbard and others said."


Here a link to cap friendly's FAQ on LTIR, has the calculations changed and they just haven't updated? I think you are misunderstanding what I explained (not that I explained it clearly mins you)

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Basic Equation Example
The league upper limit is $69M. A team has an averaged club salary of $68M and a player with a 35+ contract with an AAV of $5M ($3M cap hit and $2M in performance bonuses) becomes injured and the team places him on LTIR. The LTIR relief pools are calculated as follows:
AAV of LTIR player is $5M
Cap space = $69M - $68M = $1M
ACSL = $69M - $1M = $68M
LTIR relief:
Base salary relief pool: $3M
Performance bonus pool: $2M
Once the team operates above $68M, they have $3M in salary relief, and $2M in performance bonus relief pools.

Regards to insurance part. So it would cost over 3 million in 2012 to cover the length of Josh’s contract, if he had no history of injuries. So obviously more now, as 10 years have passed since it was 5% of contract value, and he doesn’t have a clean history of injuries.

 

[Micklebot]

It works just like I described it, no need to confuse it with over 35 players and performance bonuses, since that doesn’t apply here.

Formula = (current team cap hit + cap hit of LTIR player) - league salary cap hit (82.5 this year)

The reason why Josh isn’t on LTIR yet, is because we currently have 4.5 million in cap room, if Josh goes on LTIR it becomes, 3.45 million in LTIR cap room. So at the moment LTIR would give us less room.

I'm not complicating it, I'm quoting capfriendly, a source that cites the CBA to give an accurate description of how LTIR works.

The reason Norris isn't on LTIR today is because until we need to exceed the cap, there is no benefit to place him on it, and we can get effectively more relief the closer we are to the cap when we put him on LTIR. Its not because we get less room by placing him on LTIR now than just using our existing cap space.

If we placed Norris on LTIR today, our ACSL would be 82.5 (cap ceiling) - 4 mil (our cap space), so 78.5
Our LTIR relief would be 7.95, Norris' AVV since he has no performance bonuses.

So, if we put Norris on LTIR today, our ACSL would act as a new "Cap" for us, anything in excess of that would be drawn from the LTIR salary relief. Since the LTIR salary relief is 7.95 mil, we could add a 7.95 mil player and end up exceeding the true cap by about 3.95 mil. If we don't put him on LTIR we can only add 4 mil. If we were to add 4 mil worth of players first, and then put Norris on LTIR, our ACSL would be 82.5, our relief would still be Norris' salary of 7.95 and we could exceed the cap by 7.95.

We don't want to put him on LTIR unless we need to because the closer we are to the cap when we put him on LTIR, the more flexibility we get; our ACSL would be higher, we'd have the same amount of LTIR relief, so we could exceed the cap ceiling by more.

Regards to insurance part. So it would cost over 3 million in 2012 to cover the length of Josh’s contract, if he had no history of injuries. So obviously more now, as 10 years have passed since it was 5% of contract value, and he doesn’t have a clean history of injuries.

There used to be a comprehensive thread in the business forum on the Leagues group insurance plan but it got killed when we migrated to the xenoforo, the league has changed providers since the article I linked, so who knows what the premium is these days, they may very well have changed to get a better rate (last I saw it was Geiko providing it now not BWD). I'm not sure you can say it's obviously more, that article was at close to the height of the concussions talk, there was a lot of uncertainty, and insurers typically don't like that.

In the past, insurers could opt out of covering pre-existing injuries (like Crosby's concussions), but the premium was a set rate for a team based on that teams top 5 salaries regardless of who you chose to cover, not on a contract by contract basis, but again, who knows now since it was over a decade ago and we no longer work with the same provider.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I'm not complicating it, I'm quoting capfriendly, a source that cites the CBA to give an accurate description of how LTIR works.

The reason Norris isn't on LTIR today is because until we need to exceed the cap, there is no benefit to place him on it, and we can get effectively more relief the closer we are to the cap when we put him on LTIR. Its not because we get less room by placing him on LTIR now than just using our existing cap space.

If we placed Norris on LTIR today, our ACSL would be 82.5 (cap ceiling) - 4 mil (our cap space), so 78.5
Our LTIR relief would be 7.95, Norris' AVV since he has no performance bonuses.

So, if we put Norris on LTIR today, our ACSL would act as a new "Cap" for us, anything in excess of that would be drawn from the LTIR salary relief. Since the LTIR salary relief is 7.95 mil, we could add a 7.95 mil player and end up exceeding the true cap by about 3.95 mil. If we don't put him on LTIR we can only add 4 mil. If we were to add 4 mil worth of players first, and then put Norris on LTIR, our ACSL would be 82.5, our relief would still be Norris' salary of 7.95 and we could exceed the cap by 7.95.

We don't want to put him on LTIR unless we need to because the closer we are to the cap when we put him on LTIR, the more flexibility we get; our ACSL would be higher, we'd have the same amount of LTIR relief, so we could exceed the cap ceiling by more.



There used to be a comprehensive thread in the business forum on the Leagues group insurance plan but it got killed when we migrated to the xenoforo, the league has changed providers since the article I linked, so who knows what the premium is these days, they may very well have changed to get a better rate (last I saw it was Geiko providing it now not BWD). I'm not sure you can say it's obviously more, that article was at close to the height of the concussions talk, there was a lot of uncertainty, and insurers typically don't like that.

In the past, insurers could opt out of covering pre-existing injuries (like Crosby's concussions), but the premium was a set rate for a team based on that teams top 5 salaries regardless of who you chose to cover, not on a contract by contract basis, but again, who knows now since it was over a decade ago and we no longer work with the same provider.

Thanks for repeating what I’ve been telling you, glad we agree now.