Player Discussion Josh Norris (C) 6’-1” - Part 3

[Sens of Anarchy]

Norris won't engage

 

[starling]

Last time we won 5 in preseason was ... checks notes ... last year.

 

[swiftwin]

Last time we won 5 in preseason was ... checks notes ... last year.

Didn't we just beat the Habs 5 times though?

 

[bert]

You're the insane one here. You're the one pretending to know Norris' medical history. You're the one fabricating lies. The team played this by the book, exactly the same way other teams have.

I Have the post history all the way back saying it was a mistake. You defended it then, and still are its ridiculous. He's still hurt. You're wrong and it's well documented. To say the organization handled it perfectly is absolutely absurd.

It doesn't take a genius to understand injuries and rehab. I'f you've actually gone through it. They were out of the playoffs he had re aggravated an old injury it made no sense to bring him back. Seeking multiple opinions until you get the one you want is not how to treat an injury like this or how you manage an asset of this magnitude.

 

[JD1]

This is absolutely insane. He's still hurt. Thats not at all what happend with Caufield he shut it down immediately to get surgery. Having to seek multiple experts to get the diagnosis you want which was quite clearly wrong is not how to handle an asset that you ow 64 million dollars to. His career is in the balance and they had him come back unecessarily early.

Nobody here is a surgeon. We've got two guys with shoulder injuries.

In one case, the diagnosis might have been quite clear: surgery is the only option. In the other case the diagnosis might have been quite vague: surgery is an option but potentially avoidable if rehab goes well.

And it's the players choice. "They" didn't decide, "he" decided

As far as we know, Norris sought the opinion of reputable specialists in the field and followed that advice, knowing the potential range of outcomes. There's no one to blame here, it's just a shit situation

 

[bert]

Nobody here is a surgeon. We've got two guys with shoulder injuries.

In one case, the diagnosis might have been quite clear: surgery is the only option. In the other case the diagnosis might have been quite vague: surgery is an option but potentially avoidable if rehab goes well.

And it's the players choice. "They" didn't decide, "he" decided

As far as we know, Norris sought the opinion of reputable specialists in the field and followed that advice, knowing the potential range of outcomes. There's no one to blame here, it's just a shit situation

None of us are Doctors no. However we have a pretty straight forward debate and time of events has proven that one side was correct and one was not.

We know the original assessment was surgery. He didn't go with that he re injured himself almost immediately and still isn't healthy. That's what happened we don't need hypotheticals or any spinning. We have the results they are in.

 

[JD1]

None of us are Doctors no. However we have a pretty straight forward debate and time of events has proven that one side was correct and one was not.

We know the original assessment was surgery. He didn't go with that he re injured himself almost immediately and still isn't healthy. That's what happened we don't need hypotheticals or any spinning. We have the results they are in.

Bert no one here has the expertise to be correct, nor access to the data if in fact they had the expertise to assess it. I can guess whether the next flip of a coin is coming up heads or tails... but I'm guessing

You seem stuck on being correct. You can look back at anything in hindsight and find a better path thru a problem if the initial path wasn't 100% correct.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is whether or not to have surgery wasn't really a black and white situation and ultimately how it worked right now appears to suck.

 

[bert]

Bert no one here has the expertise to be correct, nor access to the data if in fact they had the expertise to assess it. I can guess whether the next flip of a coin is coming up heads or tails... but I'm guessing

You seem stuck on being correct. You can look back at anything in hindsight and find a better path thru a problem if the initial path wasn't 100% correct.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is whether or not to have surgery wasn't really a black and white situation and ultimately how it worked right now appears to suck.

We have the data he's still injured. This isn't hindsight. I literally said it at the time. I know the injury he needed more time to rehab. As a person who has had to come back from major injuries/surgeries I am familiar with rehabbing and how long it takes to get to 100 percent. When this was discussed I was mocked, scoffed at and insulted. Now here we are he's still injured and the same posters are saying the team handled it 'perfectly'. It's asinine.

 

[JD1]

We have the data he's still injured.

The result is he is still not ready to play.

I meant the data on the injury from last October

There's no debating that this situation is less than ideal but there's also no way to point at this being a team f*** up, which you seem to want to do.

 

[TeamRenzo]

Nobody here is a surgeon. We've got two guys with shoulder injuries.

In one case, the diagnosis might have been quite clear: surgery is the only option. In the other case the diagnosis might have been quite vague: surgery is an option but potentially avoidable if rehab goes well.

And it's the players choice. "They" didn't decide, "he" decided

As far as we know, Norris sought the opinion of reputable specialists in the field and followed that advice, knowing the potential range of outcomes. There's no one to blame here, it's just a shit situation

No, the team should have shut him down for the year. As Bert said, they weren't making the playoffs so no reason for him to play.

Its not a shit situation...it was poorly handled situation that turned into a a complete mess.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

The DJ statement referencing being mentally ready suggests the doctors can’t see anything physically wrong but that Josh has reservations about returning to action now. Maybe he knows his body better than anyone and feels something wrong despite the results of all the tests and diagnostics, maybe there is a bit of a mental hurdle to clear when he’s been out of action that long and has to start getting hit by freight trains every other night.

The language from the team suggests they are putting this on him at this point, and that medical science has done what it can.

Regardless of whether it’s physical or mental, we’d better get Pinto signed ASAP because there is a good chance the guy is our 2C to start the year

 

[RickyLafleur]

The DJ statement referencing being mentally ready suggests the doctors can’t see anything physically wrong but that Josh has reservations about returning to action now. Maybe he knows his body better than anyone and feels something wrong despite the results of all the tests and diagnostics, maybe there is a bit of a mental hurdle to clear when he’s been out of action that long and has to start getting hit by freight trains every other night.

The language from the team suggests they are putting this on him at this point, and that medical science has done what it can.

Regardless of whether it’s physical or mental, we’d better get Pinto signed ASAP because there is a good chance the guy is our 2C to start the year

It's normal, I hurt my ankle 3 times in 2-3 months and it took me well over a year to get healthy and even some more time after that to get over the mental hurdles. There's always a fear of re-injuring yourself when you've hurt something more than once. I got slashed pretty hard last week on that same ankle and I'm already having reservations about playing later tonight.

 

[JD1]

No, the team should have shut him down for the year. As Bert said, they weren't making the playoffs so no reason for him to play.

Its not a shit situation...it was poorly handled situation that turned into a a complete mess.

But it's not the team's decision. Look at the Eichel case. He wanted one medical procedure, the team wanted another. How injuries are treated and what specialists are seen isn't exclusively the team's choice.

The team didn't have final say on how the player dealt with an injury

It's normal, I hurt my ankle 3 times in 2-3 months and it took me well over a year to get healthy and even some more time after that to get over the mental hurdles. There's always a fear of re-injuring yourself when you've hurt something more than once. I got slashed pretty hard last week on that same ankle and I'm already having reservations about playing later tonight.

Have a few beers before the game. It'll take the edge off

 

[RickyLafleur]

But it's not the team's decision. Look at the Eichel case. He wanted one medical procedure, the team wanted another. How injuries are treated and what specialists are seen isn't exclusively the team's choice.

The team didn't have final say on how the player dealt with an injury


Have a few beers before the game. It'll take the edge off

It's more or less the days after the game that I'm worried about. It's not fun missing work because of a hothead at pickup.

 

[Bileur]

We have the data he's still injured. This isn't hindsight. I literally said it at the time. I know the injury he needed more time to rehab. As a person who has had to come back from major injuries/surgeries I am familiar with rehabbing and how long it takes to get to 100 percent. When this was discussed I was mocked, scoffed at and insulted. Now here we are he's still injured and the same posters are saying the team handled it 'perfectly'. It's asinine.

It is blatantly obvious that the Norris injury should have been handled differently, many posters said at the time. It is revisionist history to suggest otherwise. Maybe it was 100% Norris’ decision and overrode the sens, but it’s clear that it was the wrong decision.

It’s the same as the “why do you care it’s not your money” and “you guys whine that the sens don’t spend and now they spend and you’re angry” arguments in relation to the Ryan buy out and Del Zotto signing and subsequent buy out. Posters who flagged it were flamed as haters. It was obvious at the time that those were short sighted decisions and now we’re paying for it.

Just intellectual dishonesty and complete dillusion to defend the team at all costs.

 

[JD1]

We have the data he's still injured. This isn't hindsight. I literally said it at the time. I know the injury he needed more time to rehab. As a person who has had to come back from major injuries/surgeries I am familiar with rehabbing and how long it takes to get to 100 percent. When this was discussed I was mocked, scoffed at and insulted. Now here we are he's still injured and the same posters are saying the team handled it 'perfectly'. It's asinine.

You edited this post after I initially responded to it. Added to it actually

How could you know the injury needed more time to rehab? You don't even know what the injury was. It was a shoulder injury. Could be 100 different things wrong in there, each with different grades of injury and associated medical follow up from rehabbing to surgery.

Yes you were right. He's not ready to play. But you weren't right because you "knew", you're right because you locked in on one of the potential outcomes and that was the outcome that was realized.

I've separated my shoulder playing hockey. I've blown my ACL playing hockey. I've blown bicep tendons. I've done my share of rehab.

Let me try another way to explain this. If tomorrow's weather calls for a 30% chance of rain, there's a 70% chance it doesn't rain. 4 guys are scheduled to golf. One guy bails because it's going to rain. 3 guys show up to golf. The 3 guys that show up to golf get rained on hard. The guy that never showed up was right. He can claim all he wants that he "knew" it was going to rain, but in reality it raining was just one possible outcome

It sucks. We all want Norris back. But we're guys on the internet that waste extraordinary amounts of time debating hockey. No one here knew what was right with the Norris situation and the guy with the most say on what to do about it was Norris

It's more or less the days after the game that I'm worried about. It's not fun missing work because of a hothead at pickup.

Pickup. If you're getting slashed that hard in pick up, the guy running things needs to uninvite someone. I don't like idiots like that. I'm here for a skate and beer. Leave the stupidity at home.

 

[JD1]

It is blatantly obvious that the Norris injury should have been handled differently, many posters said at the time. It is revisionist history to suggest otherwise.

It’s the same as the “why do you care it’s not your money” and “you guys whine that the sens don’t spend and now they spend and you’re angry” arguments in relation to the Ryan buy out and Del Zotto signing and subsequent buy out. Posters who flagged it were flamed as haters. It was obvious at the time that those were short sighted decisions and now we’re paying for it.

Just intellectual dishonesty and complete dillusion to defend the team at all costs.

Personally I don't know that I've ever used the word hater on this site, at least not directing it at someone.

Hindsight says it should have been done differently. 100% I agree. If you go back to the time of the injury....no one here has the background to have an educated opinion on the subject let alone the data on which to form an opinion if you had the expertise

Anyone here an orthopedic surgeon specializing in shoulder injuries? Anyone see the x-rays? Anyone see the MRIs? Anyone see the MRIs from the first surgery, before and after, in order to compare to the images from last fall.

 

[Bileur]

Personally I don't know that I've ever used the word hater on this site, at least not directing it at someone.

Hindsight says it should have been done differently. 100% I agree. If you go back to the time of the injury....no one here has the background to have an educated opinion on the subject let alone the data on which to form an opinion if you had the expertise

Anyone here an orthopedic surgeon specializing in shoulder injuries? Anyone see the x-rays? Anyone see the MRIs? Anyone see the MRIs from the first surgery, before and after, in order to compare to the images from last fall.

I didn’t mean for that part to be directed at you JD. It was more a general comment about the discussion. Sorry for the confusion.

IIRC several orthopaedic surgeons did recommend surgery. It was the third or fourth who recommended an alternate route. It’s therefore pretty like that two or three orthopaedic surgeons, likely specializing in shoulders, did see the XRays and MRI’s and thought surgery was the best option.

 

[bert]

You edited this post after I initially responded to it. Added to it actually

How could you know the injury needed more time to rehab? You don't even know what the injury was. It was a shoulder injury. Could be 100 different things wrong in there, each with different grades of injury and associated medical follow up from rehabbing to surgery.

Yes you were right. He's not ready to play. But you weren't right because you "knew", you're right because you locked in on one of the potential outcomes and that was the outcome that was realized.

I've separated my shoulder playing hockey. I've blown my ACL playing hockey. I've blown bicep tendons. I've done my share of rehab.

Let me try another way to explain this. If tomorrow's weather calls for a 30% chance of rain, there's a 70% chance it doesn't rain. 4 guys are scheduled to golf. One guy bails because it's going to rain. 3 guys show up to golf. The 3 guys that show up to golf get rained on hard. The guy that never showed up was right. He can claim all he wants that he "knew" it was going to rain, but in reality it raining was just one possible outcome

It sucks. We all want Norris back. But we're guys on the internet that waste extraordinary amounts of time debating hockey. No one here knew what was right with the Norris situation and the guy with the most say on what to do about it was Norris


Pickup. If you're getting slashed that hard in pick up, the guy running things needs to uninvite someone. I don't like idiots like that. I'm here for a skate and beer. Leave the stupidity at home.

Go read the original discussion. You're moving goal posts and suggesting something that didn't happen. You're ignoring the actual argument and have fabricated a false scenario in someone else's favor for some strange reason.

No clue why you are digging in here but you've now joined swiften in also being incorrect but dishonest in your conversation. No one needs a rain metaphor to change the scope of the discussion.

He never should have played, more rehab time would have helped. He's still hurt the team did not handle the situation 'perfectly'. If anyone actually thinks this was handled perfectly then fine believe it. But it's an absurd take given the actual results.

 

[bert]

It is blatantly obvious that the Norris injury should have been handled differently, many posters said at the time. It is revisionist history to suggest otherwise. Maybe it was 100% Norris’ decision and overrode the sens, but it’s clear that it was the wrong decision.

It’s the same as the “why do you care it’s not your money” and “you guys whine that the sens don’t spend and now they spend and you’re angry” arguments in relation to the Ryan buy out and Del Zotto signing and subsequent buy out. Posters who flagged it were flamed as haters. It was obvious at the time that those were short sighted decisions and now we’re paying for it.

Just intellectual dishonesty and complete dillusion to defend the team at all costs.

Bingo.

It's sad that this vocal minority gets to shoot down your opinion constantly. Then when they were obviously wrong won't ever take an L or eat crow. Not only that they'll try and spin the conversation to try and discredit you personally and attack your opinion.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Last time we won 5 in preseason was ... checks notes ... last year.

What about 6 wins

 

[starling]

What about 6 wins

2007/08

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

2007/08

The cup is ours!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[operasen]

The discussion has been robust for weeks now.

I don't see why Sens don't accept to shut him down on LTR whether he likes it or not. Let him marinate as he gets healthy and in January, if he's healed, activate him. Shoulders are a career changer if not looked after properly.

An injured 2C is not helpful in the top 6. Let him return healed and add value. It would be like making a really good trade to add to the roster in the new year.

Meantime, get Pinto in there. Use Grieg/Jarventee as the 3C and Kastelic as the 4C. Extend Pinto in January when its possible and insert Norris then.

The cup is ours!