Player Discussion Josh Norris (C) 6’-1” - Part 3

[dmarc]

Did anyone hear Dean Brown on pregame show yesterday?
DB is incredibly annoying but does get the luxury to travel with the team and knows things most people don't. He was petty adamant that Norris shoulder is 100% medically cleared and it's basically a mental hurdle that's stopping him from going on the ice. He went on for about 5 minutes, it wasn't just an offhand comment.

Like he really leaned into it the way DB does, if true, just gotta feel awful for JN. I can only imagine the anxiety of maybe getting another shoulder injury, doing this again and possibly just losing your career. Hope he's able to work through it

 

[JD1]

Go read the original discussion. You're moving goal posts and suggesting something that didn't happen. You're ignoring the actual argument and have fabricated a false scenario in someone else's favor for some strange reason.

No clue why you are digging in here but you've now joined swiften in also being incorrect but dishonest in your conversation. No one needs a rain metaphor to change the scope of the discussion.

He never should have played, more rehab time would have helped. He's still hurt the team did not handle the situation 'perfectly'. If anyone actually thinks this was handled perfectly then fine believe it. But it's an absurd take given the actual results.

I couldn't be bothered to go read the initial discussion because it's irrelevant to the point I made.

Yes, you're correct Bert. It should have been handled differently.

But you didn't know that. There's no way for you to have known. Same thing with the guy that bailed on golf in my analogy. He was right....but there was no way for him to know he was right when he bailed.

I'm not being dishonest in any way. I haven't gone back and read. But I'm going to say this as someone that's qualified to have a professional opinion on statistics and data analysis....you didn't know a year ago what the outcome would be...and that is all I'm saying....yes your opinion was right....but it was within a range of possibilities...even if it was the most likely outcome, you didn't know it would be the outcome

 

[bert]

I couldn't be bothered to go read the initial discussion because it's irrelevant to the point I made.

Yes, you're correct Bert. It should have been handled differently.

But you didn't know that. There's no way for you to have known. Same thing with the guy that bailed on golf in my analogy. He was right....but there was no way for him to know he was right when he bailed.

I'm not being dishonest in any way. I haven't gone back and read. But I'm going to say this as someone that's qualified to have a professional opinion on statistics and data analysis....you didn't know a year ago what the outcome would be...and that is all I'm saying....yes your opinion was right....but it was within a range of possibilities...even if it was the most likely outcome, you didn't know it would be the outcome

You should not have commented then. Then why are you arguing?! Why bother. Stop telling me about how I couldn't have known this would happen when I said more rehab time will help. Ffs it's insane this is still continuing and you admitted you didn't even read the original debate.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Did anyone hear Dean Brown on pregame show yesterday?
DB is incredibly annoying but does get the luxury to travel with the team and knows things most people don't. He was petty adamant that Norris shoulder is 100% medically cleared and it's basically a mental hurdle that's stopping him from going on the ice. He went on for about 5 minutes, it wasn't just an offhand comment.

Like he really leaned into it the way DB does, if true, just gotta feel awful for JN. I can only imagine the anxiety of maybe getting another shoulder injury, doing this again and possibly just losing your career. Hope he's able to work through it

If it's a mental hurdle, then keep him off the ice. You don't need a guy second-guessing himself in one of the fastest sports there is.

 

[JD1]

You should not have commented then.

You should try to understand what I'm saying

 

[Masterplan]

Did anyone hear Dean Brown on pregame show yesterday?
DB is incredibly annoying but does get the luxury to travel with the team and knows things most people don't. He was petty adamant that Norris shoulder is 100% medically cleared and it's basically a mental hurdle that's stopping him from going on the ice. He went on for about 5 minutes, it wasn't just an offhand comment.

Like he really leaned into it the way DB does, if true, just gotta feel awful for JN. I can only imagine the anxiety of maybe getting another shoulder injury, doing this again and possibly just losing your career. Hope he's able to work through it

I totally get that from my past injuries. The doctor says you're good to go but you just don't trust it. It takes time, you test it slowly, and eventually you forget you were ever injured.

 

[armani]

Norris knows his game better than anybody, let him heal physically and mentally, he is a super important piece of the puzzle for team's first playoff aspirations since ECF 2017. The contacts in practice maybe what's telling Norris he still has some issues to deal with. Hopefully, nothing but healing scar tissues, just no point rushing him even though the October winning start is very important. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I totally get that from my past injuries. The doctor says you're good to go but you just don't trust it. It takes time, you test it slowly, and eventually you forget you were ever injured.

It's kind of the way it's been going for this high ankle sprain I got in July. I can do a lot of things I used to do before it, but there are still a few small bits to deal with.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

If true, it's a relief that it's all mental and not physical.

 

[Icelevel]

If true, it's a relief that it's all mental and not physical.

I wouldn’t trust the medical staff or coaches if I were him either. Fool me once….
Gotta look after yourself. Norris is not a dumb guy.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

15 years ago, everybody thought John Cena was hurt, and then he came back early and won the Royal Rumble.

Just some food for thought.

 

[bert]

If true, it's a relief that it's all mental and not physical.

I mean there's no way this is accurate. These types of surgeries take a very long time to be 100 percent. Very large difference in being cleared to play and operating at full capacity. The mental part is attached to not feeling 100.

 

[Micklebot]

I wouldn’t trust the medical staff or coaches if I were him either. Fool me once….
Gotta look after yourself. Norris is not a dumb guy.

So, last time he got the injury, they gave him a diagnosis, and then he got a second, and third opinion and so on. I know the CBA has provisions for the player to seek second opinions, I don't believe there are provisions for the team to force the player to get a second opinion. I mean, maybe they convinced him, but knowing how competitive these guys are, my assumption is he would have been the one pushing for rehab over surgery. Not sure what evidence there is to suggest the team were pulling the wool over his eyes.

 

[dmarc]

I mean there's no way this is accurate. These types of surgeries take a very long time to be 100 percent. Very large difference in being cleared to play and operating at full capacity. The mental part is attached to not feeling 100.

Senators @ Jets (Pre Gm 7) - October 5, 2023 - Pregame Show

Don't disagree with you but if you want to listen to matter of fact Dean Brown, who is never wrong, you can jump to 14.30ish

 

[bert]

Senators @ Jets (Pre Gm 7) - October 5, 2023 - Pregame Show

Don't disagree with you but if you want to listen to matter of fact Dean Brown, who is never wrong, you can jump to 14.30ish

Dean Brown has never entered a conversation he wasnt confident he was 100 percent correct in.

 

[SlapJack]

I mean there's no way this is accurate. These types of surgeries take a very long time to be 100 percent. Very large difference in being cleared to play and operating at full capacity. The mental part is attached to not feeling 100.

Everything we know is 3rd party info that most often is either limited in scope, misdirection, or supposition. You can't say anything is clear because none of of it is.

Norris could be at 100% physically but did last time as well and still reinjured it. They could've said he tweaked something because they didn't want to say he has a mental issue about returning. Honestly, being mentally unprepared is worse because that's a HUGE part of what separates equally talented players from NHLers to minor leaguers. If you're not confident on the ice, you're screwed.

 

[bert]

Everything we know is 3rd party info that most often is either limited in scope, misdirection, or supposition. You can't say anything is clear because none of of it is.

Norris could be at 100% physically but did last time as well and still reinjured it. They could've said he tweaked something because they didn't want to say he has a mental issue about returning. Honestly, being mentally unprepared is worse because that's a HUGE part of what separates equally talented players from NHLers to minor leaguers. If you're not confident on the ice, you're screwed.

No one is at 100% physically this quickly after a major surgery like this. If you have had one you know. It takes a very long time, it probably doesnt feel right but he could play on it. As i mentioned before very different from feeling 100 percent and being cleared for contact.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

No one is at 100% physically this quickly after a major surgery like this. If you have had one you know. It takes a very long time, it probably doesnt feel right but he could play on it. As i mentioned before very different from feeling 100 percent and being cleared for contact.

Muscle atrophy. Takes long time to regain....

 

[DuklaNation]

Sometimes the last 5-10% of the recovery process takes an inordinate amount of time. So a 6 month timeframe turns into 1+ years. Also, its possible its mental hurdle so this should be factored into the rehab plan.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You edited this post after I initially responded to it. Added to it actually

How could you know the injury needed more time to rehab? You don't even know what the injury was. It was a shoulder injury. Could be 100 different things wrong in there, each with different grades of injury and associated medical follow up from rehabbing to surgery.

Yes you were right. He's not ready to play. But you weren't right because you "knew", you're right because you locked in on one of the potential outcomes and that was the outcome that was realized.

I've separated my shoulder playing hockey. I've blown my ACL playing hockey. I've blown bicep tendons. I've done my share of rehab.

Let me try another way to explain this. If tomorrow's weather calls for a 30% chance of rain, there's a 70% chance it doesn't rain. 4 guys are scheduled to golf. One guy bails because it's going to rain. 3 guys show up to golf. The 3 guys that show up to golf get rained on hard. The guy that never showed up was right. He can claim all he wants that he "knew" it was going to rain, but in reality it raining was just one possible outcome

It sucks. We all want Norris back. But we're guys on the internet that waste extraordinary amounts of time debating hockey. No one here knew what was right with the Norris situation and the guy with the most say on what to do about it was Norris


Pickup. If you're getting slashed that hard in pick up, the guy running things needs to uninvite someone. I don't like idiots like that. I'm here for a skate and beer. Leave the stupidity at home.

To use your golf analogy: it's more like 30% chance of getting pneumonia when you have to actually work on an important project in a week. That 70% chance of golf going well (Norris coming back in a season where we had 0% chance of being contenders) is not worth the 30% chance of buggering up your future work prospects (this season where we have the roster to do damage).

We don't need to be doctors to know that the risk of re-injury to Norris, and subsequent time missed this year, didn't match the reward of playing in a season where we were extreme long shots to be an 8th seed.

I don't know how the decision was made, whether Norris gave an ultimatum to the team but he should just have been left on LTIR by the team.

"He can delay surgery if he wants but we're not comfortable playing him this season" - Ottawa Senators brass.

Good communication could almost certainly have headed this situation off.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I mean there's no way this is accurate. These types of surgeries take a very long time to be 100 percent. Very large difference in being cleared to play and operating at full capacity. The mental part is attached to not feeling 100.

Not necessarily. I mean I've gotten shoulder injuries before where it took almost half a year to heal and even though I've felt no pain or discomfort I was still battling mental hurdles where I would think anything could aggravate it so I didn't think I was 100 percent despite feeling it.

 

[TeamRenzo]

But it's not the team's decision. Look at the Eichel case. He wanted one medical procedure, the team wanted another. How injuries are treated and what specialists are seen isn't exclusively the team's choice.

The team didn't have final say on how the player dealt with an injury


Have a few beers before the game. It'll take the edge off

The team can absolutely keep a player out of the lineup, they chose not to.

 

[senswon]

I totally get that from my past injuries. The doctor says you're good to go but you just don't trust it. It takes time, you test it slowly, and eventually you forget you were ever injured.

Any chance JN9 could do an AHL conditioning stint to help him get his groove back???

 

[armani]

Any chance JN9 could do an AHL conditioning stint to help him get his groove back???

If re-injury is the main concern, then that assignment makes no sense - he can get injured playing down there too. He has been practicing/didn’t miss camp, so his fitness isn’t an issue even though he is missing preseason games. He is either left at IR or moved to LTIR but keeps practicing and comes back when he is ready.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Not necessarily. I mean I've gotten shoulder injuries before where it took almost half a year to heal and even though I've felt no pain or discomfort I was still battling mental hurdles where I would think anything could aggravate it so I didn't think I was 100 percent despite feeling it.

I don't buy it. No way is it all on Norris not feeling mentally ready while his shoulder is good to go. Smells like more spin.