John Tortorella Named (Part Time) Head Coach Discussion

[Hollywood Cannon]

He picked Couturier because Couts is a good soldier that he boldly assumes Tortorella can't manage to alienate. He assumes he'll never be in position to have to defend it. Just like how he was sure they wouldn't miss the playoffs consecutively so he didn't think he'd be in position to actually say Fletcher should be fired it that happens.

If Couturier gets alienated it will be defended, just like Fletcher was.

Couturier already WAS possibly alienated. He wasn’t happy that they didn’t allow him to play.

The seed has been planted.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Couturier already WAS possibly alienated. He wasn’t happy that they didn’t allow him to play.

The seed has been planted.

He was pretty roundly hated in NY. Players had a small revolt when he proclaimed he'd be back another year and was fired shortly after.

Brave to assume such an asshole can't manage to piss people off.

 

[renberg]

I’d hate to see how some of the fans and players would have reacted to Fred Shero or Mike Keenan’s coaching styles. I hear some unhappiness here but then Atkinson, Tippett, Cates and others in this locker room as well as players from CBJ, NYR and TB that are totally cool with the way that Torts dealt with them.
I may not agree with some of the things that he did this year based upon what we know, which is maybe fifteen percent of what went down. What I do really see is that the grease fire that was going on with AV/Therrien/Yeo isn’t happening any longer. I give Torts credit for ending that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’d hate to see how some of the fans and players would have reacted to Fred Shero or Mike Keenan’s coaching styles. I hear some unhappiness here but then Atkinson, Tippett, Cates and others in this locker room as well as players from CBJ, NYR and TB that are totally cool with the way that Torts dealt with them.
I may not agree with some of the things that he did this year based upon what we know, which is maybe fifteen percent of what went down. What I do really see is that the grease fire that was going on with AV/Therrien/Yeo isn’t happening any longer. I give Torts credit for ending that.

Keenan's shenanigans could only exist because UFA didn't. Otherwise there'd be an exodus.

Shero was a forward-thinking revolutionary who changed the game.

Not really comparable to Tortorella who is checked out, doesn't bother coaching or even speaking with players, and is just a mindless lazy asshole who can't be bothered to evolve with the game like Sutter.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Lol speaking of UFA, while it's true Clarke and Friends never learned how the post-cap league works, one could argue Clarke never even bothered to adapt to UFA in 1995. He couldn't stand players daring to stand up for themselves in negotiations, giving them even more leverage is probably a big reason why he thinks they're all entitled divas and a main priority of the team needs to be making them suffer.

 

[renberg]

Using a Confucianist paradigm, the HC, being a teacher, is in the superior position while the player is, as a student, in the inferior one. When learning by the student is not taking place, it’s their role to approach the teacher to resolve the situation for progress to occur. Without that the student hasn’t taken the first step in order to learn.
Just what is Tortorella supposed to do with TDA who ought to know why he was benched and then took no steps to correct himself with the coaching staff? Or Hayes who sulked when he was taken off of his center position and placed on the wing? Would Torts’ kissing their butts have remedied the situation?
As for Torts treatment of Frost, he was hard on him but seemed to ease up on him as the season progressed. Frost at game #82 was a heck of a lot better player than he was opening night. That is due to both parties finding a way to work things out for the betterment of the team and the player. The same is true of Tippett.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Using a Confucianist paradigm, the HC, being a teacher, is in the superior position while the player is, as a student, in the inferior one. When learning by the student is not taking place, it’s their role to approach the teacher to resolve the situation for progress to occur. Without that the student hasn’t taken the first step in order to learn.
Just what is Tortorella supposed to do with TDA who ought to know why he was benched and then took no steps to correct himself with the coaching staff? Or Hayes who sulked when he was taken off of his center position and placed on the wing? Would Torts’ kissing their butts have remedied the situation?
As for Torts treatment of Frost, he was hard on him but seemed to ease up on him as the season progressed. Frost at game #82 was a heck of a lot better player than he was opening night. That is due to both parties finding a way to work things out for the betterment of the team and the player. The same is true of Tippett.

Nah, it's the coach's job to teach and he refused to. We've heard this from multiple people. Tortorella himself, months ago, said he has quit communicating or dealing in Xs and Os despite that being the job.

The chief difference for Frost is thanks to injuries, he couldn't be jerked around anymore. He can play with confidence. Even that required an intervention from above, and those people don't like Frost either. A ton of his play is actually the exact kind of thing Tortorella rails against. Tippett came into the season changed, so I'd like to know who he worked with in the offseason. Hire that guy to the staff.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Using a Confucianist paradigm, the HC, being a teacher, is in the superior position while the player is, as a student, in the inferior one. When learning by the student is not taking place, it’s their role to approach the teacher to resolve the situation for progress to occur. Without that the student hasn’t taken the first step in order to learn.
Just what is Tortorella supposed to do with TDA who ought to know why he was benched and then took no steps to correct himself with the coaching staff? Or Hayes who sulked when he was taken off of his center position and placed on the wing? Would Torts’ kissing their butts have remedied the situation?
As for Torts treatment of Frost, he was hard on him but seemed to ease up on him as the season progressed. Frost at game #82 was a heck of a lot better player than he was opening night. That is due to both parties finding a way to work things out for the betterment of the team and the player. The same is true of Tippett.

So many posters want coaches & management to cater to the players.

It’s a backward structure.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So many posters want coaches & management to cater to the players.

It’s a backward structure.

No we want them to do their job. Nobody has ever said that. You're strawmanning again.

 

[renberg]

No we want them to do their job. Nobody has ever said that. You're strawmanning again.

If they don’t do their jobs well, fire them as well as the ones who hired the loser.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If they don’t do their jobs well, fire them as well as the ones who hired the loser.

Well they've finally fired one of those people. The rest are all still here.

 

[renberg]

Well they've finally fired one of those people. The rest are all still here.

Give them credit for that. However, as you’ve mentioned, the rot goes deeper than Fletcher.

 

[freakydallas13]

I’d hate to see how some of the fans and players would have reacted to Fred Shero or Mike Keenan’s coaching styles. I hear some unhappiness here but then Atkinson, Tippett, Cates and others in this locker room as well as players from CBJ, NYR and TB that are totally cool with the way that Torts dealt with them.
I may not agree with some of the things that he did this year based upon what we know, which is maybe fifteen percent of what went down. What I do really see is that the grease fire that was going on with AV/Therrien/Yeo isn’t happening any longer. I give Torts credit for ending that.

I feel the need to re-iterate that it was Deadhead (and not the rest of this board you seem to imply) who, when asked to provide a specific example of something he would criticize Torts for, gave the reply of "alienating Coots". I'm just trying to understand why he only cares about the head coach alienating Coots specifically, and doesn't seem to care that Torts does it to other players.

 

[deadhead]

I feel the need to re-iterate that it was Deadhead (and not the rest of this board you seem to imply) who, when asked to provide a specific example of something he would criticize Torts for, gave the reply of "alienating Coots". I'm just trying to understand why he only cares about the head coach alienating Coots specifically, and doesn't seem to care that Torts does it to other players.

Because Couts (and Cates) do things the right way and don't need a kick in the ass.

Torts pushed Frost, and Frost owes him a lot of money when he gets his new contract in a year or two. B/c Frost had a tendency of going MIA, losing focus and Torts by riding him made him aware that he's got to bring it every shift and has made him a better player.

Torts pushed Tippett, and demanded more and more, and Tippett stepped up.

Torts pushed TK, gave him more responsibility, and he took his game up another level.

Torts pushed York, and got him to play more aggressively instead of just passively doing his job, demanding that he push play and become the "man."

Torts pushed Risto, and Shaw actually instilled fundamentals in him.

Torts pushed Sanheim, and it was like pushing on a wet noodle.

Some people here think coaching is draw up some Xs and Os, and "go score some goals"
"Defense, we don't need no stinkin' defense."

 

[freakydallas13]

Without getting into why you think alienating certain players is a good thing (?), all I'm going to say is that you can push players without alienating them.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Every other team in the league would be jumping on his second half, hyping him up, marketing him. Especially a team with as little as the Flyers.

Theyve talked about him as little as possible. It tells you everything about what they value. Throughout the org, both the shitty Comcast and the scumbag hockey parts.

Oh there are still idiots in high ranking roles. I have no doubts and am all too aware.....

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tippett was a changed player before the season began. Tortorella didn't do shit. I must reiterate: Tortorella proudly proclaimed he wouldn't focus on minutiae like that with players, and proudly proclaimed that he doesn't want to bother communicating with players anymore because he doesn't understand them. We have multiple players confirming that's how he worked.

Tortorella shouldn't be getting credit for a single thing in terms of how players individually play.

 

[JABEE]

The wave of the future in all sports are player-friendly coaches with high emotional intelligence. This is how you get the most out of players. It is how you keep and recruit UFAs when there are plenty of other options around the league and a cap system. Torts is one of the worst options for this part of it.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

61 point pace his last 54 games. And yet there are another 90+ guys like that. Shows how far behind everyone else tge Flyers are.


Yet you defended Hayes for years....

Wait, I'm confused here.....

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Well I’m sure as shit not minimizing the difficulty involved. The hardest part of pro level coaching is the day to day people and motivational management.

The problem is that we’re quoting ducking sensei relationships when all most people are asking for is to not do specifically personal shit like benching someone when they have a dozen F+F coming to the game in their hometown. Just treat people well and communicate clearly. That’s it. Even the ones I don’t like such as DeAngelo.

Which buttons you choose to press as a coach defines your rep. He knows he’s being a combative dick. It’s by design. It doesn’t make him an idiot, but it does make him a prick.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's like he's trying to get fired so he can take his money and retire early. Being a dickhead isn't new, but refusing to do his job is an interesting wrinkle.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Well I’m sure as shit not minimizing the difficulty involved. The hardest part of pro level coaching is the day to day people and motivational management.

The problem is that we’re quoting ducking sensei relationships when all most people are asking for is to not do specifically personal shit like benching someone when they have a dozen F+F coming to the game in their hometown. Just treat people well and communicate clearly. That’s it. Even the ones I don’t like such as DeAngelo.

Which buttons you choose to press as a coach defines your rep. He knows he’s being a combative dick. It’s by design. It doesn’t make him an idiot, but it does make him a prick.

This is why you’re the best.

 

[deadhead]

Well I’m sure as shit not minimizing the difficulty involved. The hardest part of pro level coaching is the day to day people and motivational management.

The problem is that we’re quoting ducking sensei relationships when all most people are asking for is to not do specifically personal shit like benching someone when they have a dozen F+F coming to the game in their hometown. Just treat people well and communicate clearly. That’s it. Even the ones I don’t like such as DeAngelo.

Which buttons you choose to press as a coach defines your rep. He knows he’s being a combative dick. It’s by design. It doesn’t make him an idiot, but it does make him a prick.

I suspect on the prick index, Torts isn't close to the top. He wears his emotions on his sleeve, which makes it more obvious, but he also doesn't hold grudges with players and gives them second and third chances. Heck, Hartnell likes him and Torts screwed him around a bit.

This nice guy stuff, very few can pull it off, how many HCs have we seen lose teams b/c they wouldn't hold players accountable? The first rough stretch . . .
On the other hand, "tough guys" like Cassidy can win but often have a short shelf life b/c they alienate teams. Gallant can't make it through 3 seasons.

Some guys may need to be pushed, Seth Jones with Torts was a perennial Norris candidate, without him, meh. Some guys chafe at it.

 

[JABEE]

It usually takes a real prick to get any hockey player to publicly bad-mouth a coach. I'm sure there are plenty like Torts, but the stories of him just benching guys for no reason or explanation are a consistent story.

Hockey players aren't known for publicly calling out coaches, etc. The positive stories and recollections don't overpower the real reputation of him around the league.

 

[pit]

There is nothing special about December 7th.

Thanks man, that's not my birthday or anything.

Also, Pearl Harbor vets aren't upset by this either.