John Tavares Discussion

[francis246]

He didn’t bridge the kids, though. And under no circumstances should any team pay $11M to a player on their second line. If they didn’t have a 20 year old franchise centre in Matthews then sure.

Regardless of what you think of Marleau his contract was on the salary forecast. Adding Tavares created the need to move it - they could have kept him and let him play out the final year while still keeping players.

If Kadri was traded for anything other than money Dubas is even dumber than I give him credit for. They need an emotional leader and they haven’t had one since he left. In return they got possibly the most vanilla player in the league who skates fast but doesn’t play fast.

Team was looking to trade Marleau well before the Tavares signing anyways. I think that was always an albatross contract they were looking to move once Dubas took over.

If you do the math you know Kadri would have fit and still could have fit under the current structure. Why do you think so many people were purplexed at the move? It’s been widely reported on, Kadri move had nothing to do with Salary. Had everything to do with they did not want him back after being suspended twice in a row. Dubas’ worst move.

In hindsight the signing was bad. But on the day of the signing it was a fair value contract and I had no problem with it. It’s unfortunate what followed, that has resulted in the contract looking worse but it’s hard to predict that all your RFA’s are going to stick it to you.

you feel the the Tavares signing killed the team, I feel the mishandling of the RFA’s killed the team. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that. But I’ve already shown you that the moves outside of maybe Brown and Kapanen had nothing to do with Tavares.

 

[deltamachine]

I think they should try swapping the wingers. Nylander for all his skills, if it doesn't come easy, it doesn't come at all. And Kerfoot is at a size disadvantage that his skill level can't compensate for. It's unfortunate for a player making 11M, but to unlock Tavares' skillset, he needs to be paired with Marner. Auston will still get his production, because he's Auston.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Before Covid:
T-16th in overall points.
T-21 in overall goals.
T-18 in ES points.
T-42 in ES goals.

Since having Covid:
T-91st in points.
T-136th in goals.

And inspite of all of this, this is the 2nd best PTS/60 of his career (tied with last year) behind only that 47 goal season, which is clearly an outlier for him. If he maintained his pre-Covid rate, it likely would have been an almost 40 goal season and a 90+ point season for him; by far the best he has had other than the one 47 goal season once again.

So let's cut the BS like this has been a long time coming. He has played the best hockey of his career here, and only once he sufferred a serious case of Covid has it gone off the rails a bit for him.

As for why Keefe doesn't say anything:

1) It is none of your damn business if he suffering from Covid symptoms still.
2) Fairly sure he legally can't say anything, and even if he could, it is Tavares' choice if he wants to talk about it.

Cool, unverified post COVID symptoms it is then. Looking forward to the next excuse you come up with.

 

[I am Canadian]

Tavares needs Marner in a way that Matthews does not.

Tavares was so much better with Marner imo

 

[francis246]

Cool, unverified post COVID symptoms it is then. Looking forward to the next excuse you come up with.

i mean it's not unverified, John Tavares and Kyle Dubas both came out and said Tavares was among the worst affected by Covid on the team. But you're right in the sense that we have no idea whether or not that is still currently affecting his play right now.

But he has looked way worse coming off of covid/extended break. He just looks slow as heck out there and forcing passes through the neutral zone. I think that's why he works better with Mitch, because Mitch is amazing at controlling play and setting things up. Nylander is great in the Neutral Zone too but he looks more to score off the rush instead of setting things up. Flipping Marner and Nylander might be a good short term solution for now.

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner
Kerfoot - Kampf - Kase

 

[BrannigansLaw]

i mean it's not unverified, John Tavares and Kyle Dubas both came out and said Tavares was among the worst affected by Covid on the team. But you're right in the sense that we have no idea whether or not that is still currently affecting his play right now.

But he has looked way worse coming off of covid/extended break. He just looks slow as heck out there and forcing passes through the neutral zone. I think that's why he works better with Mitch, because Mitch is amazing at controlling play and setting things up. Nylander is great in the Neutral Zone too but he looks more to score off the rush instead of setting things up. Flipping Marner and Nylander might be a good short term solution for now.

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner
Kerfoot - Kampf - Kase

Yeah I get that but he was also bad to begin the season too. Same people throwing out COVID now were those saying he might be dealing with concussion symptoms then. And if we go back to last year, he looked like garbage for a significant stretch as well before heating up before the playoffs. It’s a pattern that’s been happening well before this recent COVID break.

We all know he puts up points being a passenger, whoop dee f***ing doo. Tired of the excuses and the amount of leash this guy gets.

 

[francis246]

Yeah I get that but he was also bad to begin the season too. Same people throwing out COVID now were those saying he might be dealing with concussion symptoms then. And if we go back to last year, he looked like garbage for a significant stretch as well before heating up before the playoffs. It’s a pattern that’s been happening well before this recent COVID break.

We all know he puts up points being a passenger, whoop dee f***ing doo. Tired of the excuses and the amount of leash this guy gets.

i agree, it's tough. He has rough patches, I don't know what to say, maybe I'm naive but I think they will figure it out. I'm banking on us acquiring another forward so we are able to play around with the lines. Man doesn't it suck to not have Kadri or a Kadri type forward right now.

 

[Stephen]

he’s still a PPG. I just think Leafs fans get wrapped up in goal scoring. He isn’t scoring, but he’s doing other things well. I’m pretty sure he had two primary assists on Nylanders goals against STL. I just can’t wait for the cap to go up because the constant nitpicking because of salary is soo so tiring. There are worse contracts out there.

additionally it’s pretty evident Covid has affected him.

Tavares’ PPG rate is a bit of a double edged sword. He doesn’t give you reliable 5 on 5 game to game and this creates chemistry issues with Nylander and Kerfoot but the production stays consistent. So is he finding ways to contribute, or do the numbers mask his issues?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

As I told guys on day 1 after signing JT will in either 2022 or 2023 move to left wing .. there is no surprise here .. sometimes father time works a little faster .. speed was always an issue and it clearly is getting worse where he is too slow on forecheck and then again on backcheck .. he can still take draws that is not da issue .. but he will be a board man on left side at some point, likely next year .. some of you act like you are shocked but it was always da plan .. this is why we can't sell off our 2022 1st rounder as we need to pick up a centre from O in 2022 draft (maybe even 2 centres) .. 2022 is a good draft year and we need a centre back fill .. but with GM likely fired after playoff loss he could try to unload da pick to help make a playoff run which will be bad for org overall .. a lot will be said if Shanny keeps da pick or lets Dubie trade it away .. da team needs a couple defenders and everyone knows it for playoffs so it is a tricky spot to be in here for team

 

[francis246]

Tavares’ PPG rate is a bit of a double edged sword. He doesn’t give you reliable 5 on 5 game to game and this creates chemistry issues with Nylander and Kerfoot but the production stays consistent. So is he finding ways to contribute, or do the numbers mask his issues?

it’s a good question! I’m not a hockey analyst or in management so I couldn’t answer that adequately

 

[Mess]

The Tavares / Nylander line has been a problem for a while now as both JT and Willy reached 8 games without a goal while leaking goals against at a alarming number. JT is up to 9 games now.

I don't understand why Keefe refuses to address this and at least try something different.

A simply solution would be to flip Marner and Nylander and go back to what has worked in the past.

 

[LeafGrief]

The cycle of "Tavares sucks" and "Tavares is awesome" is definitely getting tiring at this point. He will inevitably cycle back down to awesome at some point, but at the very least we are hoping for more consistency from our captain and 11m player.

 

[Voodoo Child]

I think JT either needs to rest for 2-3 games or needs some time with Mitch.

And it is very important that this is couched to Mitch not as a demotion, but as a chance to help raise the boats here. Mitch seems sensitive, this is delicate.

Mitch is a heady player who can slow the game down and get JT the chances to bury one, while Willy is a straight up speed player who needs to keep moving.

Forget Willy, now we’ve got Alex Kerfoot leaving JT in the dust, it’s not a good scene.

 

[D00bis]

JT needs to be surrounded by fast attacking wingers to make up for his short comings, hes constantly a step behind and "late to the party" usually. I dont think Nylander and kerfoot are the kind of fwrds that can compliment JT's atributes or they have to at least come up with some new game plans for zone entries and cycles.

 

[Al14]

It just might be time to ask Tavares to wave his no trade clause. He's not worth his 11M $ cap hit any longer. He is too slow, and is not making any impact on the ice, nor does it appear as the Captain in the dressing room.

 

[6ix]

Worst captain in modern era leafs history. Personality of a robot.

Never seen this guy snap like a captain should when the team needs to be better. A lion doesn’t roar all day, but John Tavares never roars.

 

[steam whistle]

The problem is who will take him if he waive NTC?

 

[Matthews4Calder]

Team was looking to trade Marleau well before the Tavares signing anyways. I think that was always an albatross contract they were looking to move once Dubas took over.

If you do the math you know Kadri would have fit and still could have fit under the current structure. Why do you think so many people were purplexed at the move? It’s been widely reported on, Kadri move had nothing to do with Salary. Had everything to do with they did not want him back after being suspended twice in a row. Dubas’ worst move.

In hindsight the signing was bad. But on the day of the signing it was a fair value contract and I had no problem with it. It’s unfortunate what followed, that has resulted in the contract looking worse but it’s hard to predict that all your RFA’s are going to stick it to you.

you feel the the Tavares signing killed the team, I feel the mishandling of the RFA’s killed the team. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that. But I’ve already shown you that the moves outside of maybe Brown and Kapanen had nothing to do with Tavares.

When JT signed I was all for it as it only cost us cash. Didn't have to give up anything. I recall though and I've been crucified for saying this but I thought I had read that if JT signed the other 3 were going to take a smaller cap hit to help build the team. That didn't happen and I agree with you that's what has screwed this team. Said it back then Dubas should have played hardball with all 3 of them. Matthews is a special case and whether we like to pay players for only 3 years of service and really not accomplishing anything team wise unfortunately it is what it is. The other 2 I would have either let sit or traded. Marner is not worth what he gets paid. Sure he's an elite player, top point producer in the league etc etc but he's a small winger making probably 1-2 million more than he should. Nylander is expendable and after holding out got his way. Should have been traded. Dubas now has had to limited opportunity cap wise to improve the team. You look at Reilly's signing and the other 3 were greedy in my opinion. Our D is average and our goaltending has been ok but still some uncertainty there but unless a big contract was moved out pretty hard to improve in that area.

 

[GoodNewfieBoy]

Tavares has been downright awful since the Olympics was a no go for NHL players. He’s actual trash out there. He’s so slow and he doesn’t use his body properly to manipulate time and space the way a slow, elite centre should. His contract is an anchor and while at the time I almost cried tears of joy when we signed him, it’s turning out to be a terrible signing in retrospect because we haven’t been able to build a proper team around Matthews AND the fact the signing made everyone else’s contracts higher too. We had to trade Kadri because of him as well and have tossed so many good players overboard because of what has happened since this signing such as Brown, Kapenen, Johnson, etc etc. Add the fact he’s our captain and doesn’t seem to lead with his voice or by example, and it’s just been a downright disaster ever since he came on board.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Tavares needs Marner in a way that Matthews does not.

Tavares was so much better with Marner imo

Yeah it is very confusing how stubborn Keefe is about this. Marner and Tavares have had great chemistry in the past and Matthews doesn't need Marner to drive his line. He'll prob try it for a game or two and then go right back to what we have now.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Yeah it is very confusing how stubborn Keefe is about this. Marner and Tavares have had great chemistry in the past and Matthews doesn't need Marner to drive his line. He'll prob try it for a game or two and then go right back to what we have now.

Not to mention the Matthews/Nylander pairing had quite a bit of success as well previously. No harm in mixing things up a bit to see if it jump starts Tavares.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

I honestly think that Tavares in his current form would look really good as a LW for Matthews. But overall, JT is still a good 2nd line center, but yeah it's tough to explain, but he just looks so off even when he produces. It's too bad the Leafs didn't really develop Nylander at center because honestly as a Marlie and in his early Leafs career, he played way more like a natural center

The bolded is interesting because they have played really well together, albeit in a small sample size. Just wish we had another C to plug in comfortably on the 2nd line to make it more than a brief change to create offense and we don't have to double shift players. At least the option will be available come playoff time if we need a spark, barring another injury....

 

[ShaneFalco]

The bolded is interesting because they have played really well together, albeit in a small sample size. Just wish we had another C to plug in comfortably on the 2nd line to make it more than a brief change to create offense and we don't have to double shift players. At least the option will be available come playoff time if we need a spark, barring another injury....

I mean they mixed the lines up for 1.5 games? I just don't see keefe doing this. His go-to is stacking the first line and then keeping it that way.

 

[Ports]

LMAO, really? How old are you?

No, they couldn't afford him because his signing came at the expense of the quality depth they'd built and cost them a 1st round pick (Seth Jarvis) to shed salary. Between Brown, Kapanen, Kadri and the list goes on with other potential adds we didn't hear about but didn't happen because of money.

I like Tavares, too. But if you put aside you fandom for a minute, this was never a smart move for the Maple Leafs organization given where they were at and where he'd slot into their roster. $11M is wayyyyy too much for your second line centre slot, even if Tavares was still an elite #1C.[

whats the rational for moving him to the wing? He’s strong on the dot and he’s still responsible defensively. Two of the most important things to be a Center.

whats the rational for moving him to the wing? He’s strong on the dot and he’s still responsible defensively. Two of the most important things to be a Center.

Except he’s not very good defensively. Despite starting almost 70% of his shifts in the offensive zone, he’s about 15-20th on the team in most shot and scoring metrics. He’s great at faceoffs and below the dots in the offensive zone but his lack of foot speed make it difficult for him to push the puck offensively and back check effectively. There’s no question that he is no longer an $11M player. He was his first year with Marner when he scored 47 goals but his play has regressed and he’s currently 40th in the league in scoring and that level of players shouldn’t make $11M.

 

[Shooter2x]

As of this very moment Kampf looks better offensively. Something is wrong with him. Maybe injury and he's too much a beast to not play through it. Putting Marner beside him won't change anything, he'll just drag Marner down like he's currently doing with Nylander