John Tavares Discussion
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Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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I think people tend to tippy toe around Tavares when it comes to criticism, always deferring to a respectful tone about how he's a great player even when he has a monstrously bad time.
He struggles way too much for a great player, and the gap between his A game and B game frankly makes it difficult to build a coherent game plan with him in a lead role. Yes, he still gets his cookies, and he's a PPG player on paper, yada yada, but the 5 on 5 value really doesn't feel like it's really there. And I don't mean little toolsy veteran plays only the most tactically literate hockey coach can appreciate, I mean emphatic impact franchise center plays.
I don't know what his challenges are, technical, mental, health but he's just doing it.
saffronleaf
Registered User
but that's his bread and butter. he's the Ultimate Tool
LucicAndChong
formerly known as Big Sugar
If he isn’t already there this year, John Tavares will be a glorified 3C by next year.
i am not comfortable having him as 2C anymore. That line is not working and I don’t blame Kerfoot or Nylander (well maybe Nylander a little bit)
even if we move him to the wing I am unhappy. People want to complain that Marner isn’t a $10 million dollar winger, well JT DEFINITELY isn’t an $11 million dollar winger.
the style of game he plays should allow him to stay in the league for some time still, and I bet he will get another contract after he’s done with this current one, but he for sure will not be a top 6 player by that time.
John Tavares is the worst contract on the Maple Leafs and it will be IMPOSSIBLE to trade. He obviously can’t play 2C anymore, there is no f***ing way he is going to be 3C with his contract and if he becomes a winger then we have a MASSIVE hole we have to fill in the 2C spot.
this is a serious problem.
i am not comfortable having him as 2C anymore. That line is not working and I don’t blame Kerfoot or Nylander (well maybe Nylander a little bit)
even if we move him to the wing I am unhappy. People want to complain that Marner isn’t a $10 million dollar winger, well JT DEFINITELY isn’t an $11 million dollar winger.
the style of game he plays should allow him to stay in the league for some time still, and I bet he will get another contract after he’s done with this current one, but he for sure will not be a top 6 player by that time.
John Tavares is the worst contract on the Maple Leafs and it will be IMPOSSIBLE to trade. He obviously can’t play 2C anymore, there is no f***ing way he is going to be 3C with his contract and if he becomes a winger then we have a MASSIVE hole we have to fill in the 2C spot.
this is a serious problem.
leafsfan2point0
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2011
- 2,082
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I definitely agree with a lot of this. A lot of his gameplay he seems invisible until he comes out of nowhere with a goal and assist. He’s definitely not flashy and he looks slow. But imo he’s still always in pretty good position and around ppg.
I think his 1st overall talent, iq and instincts with stall his decline more then most players.
Duffman955
Registered User
- Mar 4, 2010
- 14,731
- 4,182
Does this guy have problems with his house life?
He was an absolute dominating force in his first year.
And then he has a kid and BOOOOM. Plays like absolute trash
He was an absolute dominating force in his first year.
And then he has a kid and BOOOOM. Plays like absolute trash
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
- 49,735
- 59,495
pretty tough assessment from Keefe to say that Tavares and his linemates got outworked. That's just not something that can happen. I think it's fair to say that Tavares gets pretty easy usage, and the performance from him has not been good enough. There are too many nights where he isn't a factor
HellasLEAF
'93 to Infinity
- Sep 14, 2006
- 15,581
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Unless your name is Auston Matthews shouldn't be handing no trade/movement clause to anyone. The big contracts are ensuring this team continues years of on going failure. Sad to see how tied their hands are but they tied them themselves.
Seath The Scaleless
Paledrake
How does he go from playing arguably his best hockey as a Leaf before the Covid break to whatever the hell we're seeing now? It has to be an injury, right? Or lingering effects from Covid???
Just be ready to go come playoff time, please.
Just be ready to go come playoff time, please.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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He actually said everyone got outworked, but the question specifically mentioned Tavares' line.
Then he said that the bottom 6 worked really hard and actually looked good. In the 3rd period, that definitely was the case. And they were better than our top guys for most of the game.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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My bet is Covid symptoms. And we don't know how long it will take for him to get over it. Research says it could take a few months. It has been about 2 months now, but I think there have been people who have suffered from it a lot longer than that.
Now they are usually not professional athletes, which may be a good or bad thing for Tavares. One would hope he can recover from it.
Why doesn’t Keefe just say Tavares is dealing with post COVID symptoms then? It’s not like teams can target that like a lower body injury for example. I’m sorry I don’t buy that COVID excuse, he is just flat out terrible and he was terrible before he strung together some good games this year too. He’s been getting worse for awhile now.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
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Tavares always gets so much leeway and benefit of the doubt even when he's not getting things done. I'm glad Keefe was critical of him and his line. This isn't the first time he's looked so bad for prolonged stretches. Maybe it isn't always some external factor.
Havoc
Registered User
- Jul 25, 2009
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If you compare current Tavares to his entire body of work as recent as December, covid symptoms does come out as the most plausible theory. He went from beast to useless in a few weeks after being elite his whole life?
LucicAndChong
formerly known as Big Sugar
How many teams would be interested in JT retained to $8 million?
Although the leafs would be on the hook for $3 million dollars for the next 3 years I would deem it worth while to get out from under that contract.
with the way this management group has shown the ability to get good players for cheap (bunting, kampf, Mikheyev) I think the $8 million dollars in cap space this trade could provide is more valuable than Tavares himself.
he no longer looks like a top 6 Center, and there is no way in hell I will be happy with paying JT $11 mil to play wing
Although the leafs would be on the hook for $3 million dollars for the next 3 years I would deem it worth while to get out from under that contract.
with the way this management group has shown the ability to get good players for cheap (bunting, kampf, Mikheyev) I think the $8 million dollars in cap space this trade could provide is more valuable than Tavares himself.
he no longer looks like a top 6 Center, and there is no way in hell I will be happy with paying JT $11 mil to play wing
He hasn’t been elite for awhile now. 2019 Tavares was elite, he’s steadily declined since. His hands, IQ and positioning all seem to have slowed down to the level of his skating whereas before those attributes made up for his lack of mobility.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,018
Well, Tavares had some real struggles earlier last season as well when it looked like he was skating in cement and there was speculation about an abdominal injury, being a new parent, learning to be a better committed two way center, etc. He snapped out of it down the stretch and looked like a new player before he got hurt in Game One, but this isn't the first time when he looks a couple of steps behind the play and out of sync 5 on 5. You never notice these stretches because he's always on the score sheet in the game logs, but those dips in play are quite noticeable at various points and he just looks cooked.
I think he'll catch fire at some point and make all this discussion look foolish, but the question remains, why is his quality of play so erratic.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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Before Covid:
T-16th in overall points.
T-21 in overall goals.
T-18 in ES points.
T-42 in ES goals.
Since having Covid:
T-91st in points.
T-136th in goals.
And inspite of all of this, this is the 2nd best PTS/60 of his career (tied with last year) behind only that 47 goal season, which is clearly an outlier for him. If he maintained his pre-Covid rate, it likely would have been an almost 40 goal season and a 90+ point season for him; by far the best he has had other than the one 47 goal season once again.
So let's cut the BS like this has been a long time coming. He has played the best hockey of his career here, and only once he sufferred a serious case of Covid has it gone off the rails a bit for him.
As for why Keefe doesn't say anything:
1) It is none of your damn business if he suffering from Covid symptoms still.
2) Fairly sure he legally can't say anything, and even if he could, it is Tavares' choice if he wants to talk about it.
Tak7
Registered User
This is the most accurate summary of Tavares I've read in a few months - especially the drop off between his A-game and ... the rest of it. There's just far too big a gap between those 2 extremes to really feel comfortable with him. When you factor in his age and lack of speed, and it's only natural to be concerned about where this goes.
saffronleaf
Registered User
It looks like either Tavares is cooked or he is still severely injured from COVID. If it's the latter then he should go on LTIR and allow someone who can contribute to step in while he recovers.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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I don't think you can go on LTIR for Covid symptoms. Even then, Tavares is still than anyone who would replace him anyways, even if he is not producing. If he is not out for the rest of the year, which we can't realistically say he would be out.
Oscar Peterson
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2015
- 805
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I honestly think that Tavares in his current form would look really good as a LW for Matthews. But overall, JT is still a good 2nd line center, but yeah it's tough to explain, but he just looks so off even when he produces. It's too bad the Leafs didn't really develop Nylander at center because honestly as a Marlie and in his early Leafs career, he played way more like a natural center
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