John Tavares Discussion

[notDatsyuk]

Why is there such a push to change anything? We are winning. We don’t absolutely need Tavares to score. It’s just something people want to feel good about the contract. We are up 2-1. No need to change anything.

Would it be nice if Tavares potted one yes, but it’s not a something that needs to happen for us to win the series.

I'm not pushing to change things, just responding to some who are. Some people are saying "what do we do to get him going?" and all I'm saying is "maybe we have to consider that this is what he is now". I can understand wanting to separate him and Nylander, as they don't seem to work well together, but if everything else is working, why tamper?

 

[notDatsyuk]

I was a member of the old Toronto maple leaf official message board. He was lit up daily.

Some, but not as much as he got after signing with Vancouver. Then it got really nasty.

 

[Stephen]

See just about the only thing in the post quoted of note was team makeup. If you check over the same age period, you may be surprised how they both rank amongst their peers. Can Tavares perform with lesser linemates? Don't know currently, though he has much of his career. Tavares' contract ends at what, 34? If you keep getting Pt/GP, near league leading FO, good D etc. he affords us well above average strength down the middle until the big three become veteran men, at which point we move on.

My point, without judgement in this case, is Mats Sundin isn't an appropriate Tavares comparison.

The game was a little bit older then and not the sprint it is today, so I'll give you that. But Sundin at 31 was hitting 41 goals, 80 points and part of that 2002 run to the conference finals vs Carolina (where he was injured for much of the run). He still had 5x additional years of 70+ point hockey left.

We're also in a series vs Victor Hedman, and he was the 1-2 pick along with JT in 2009 and he doesn't seem so prematurely declined either. Stamkos is from the same birth year and he just rattled off a 100 point season (though he isn't traditionally a playoff performer at all).

Also, comparing Sundin to his peers in 2001-02, same age as Tavares is at 31, he finished with 80 points which was 4th in overall point scoring. 41 goals tied him for second overall in the league. To name drop the 2021-22 equivalent, that's Leon Draisaitl. So really, Sundin shouldn't be compared with Tavares is all I'm saying.

 

[Stephen]

I was a member of the old Toronto maple leaf official message board. He was lit up daily.

We traded a beloved Canadian captain for a young Swedish player and that didn't earn Sundin the warmest welcome. By the end of his career people wanted to cash him in to start the rebuild and he was branded as Muskoka 5 guy. In the middle years there were times the Leafs wanted to move him for guys like Rob Blake or Eric Lindros and talk about him not being intense like Clark or Gilmour, but it wasn't the same as JT's struggles.

 

[Leafblooded]

We traded a beloved Canadian captain for a young Swedish player and that didn't earn Sundin the warmest welcome. By the end of his career people wanted to cash him in to start the rebuild and he was branded as Muskoka 5 guy. In the middle years there were times the Leafs wanted to move him for guys like Rob Blake or Eric Lindros and talk about him not being intense like Clark or Gilmour, but it wasn't the same as JT's struggles.

Sundin was a god in this city and if it wasn't for him being European the fans and media would've never gotten away with how he was treated towards the end. He's still hurt about it and rarely comes back here. He was the heart and soul of the Leafs for a decade, and brought everything to this team that a captain should bring.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Sundin dragged around a 200 lb anchor named Jonus Freakin Hoglund and turned him into a 20+ goal scorer. 'nuff said.

Yeah but JT is dragging a diva, floater and turned him into a PPG Winger so advantage Tavares.

 

[sxvnert]

Leafs are better off putting JT on a defensive line wing.

Nylander-Matthews-Marner
Mikheyev-Kampf-Tavares
Engvall-Kerfoot-Kase
Bunting-Blackwell-Spezza

 

[Voodoo Child]

How has it been bad? He’s literally been on the ice for 1 goal against. His Faceoff percentage is really high. How is that bad. Some of you are on strange medication

Oh, he’s been winning face offs, David Kampf also wins face offs.

Stamkos has also been a dud - but at least he’s getting quality looks on the PP, could easily have 2-3 goals by now.

In the playoffs where there’s no cap it’s not a problem, but during the regular season when he goes 14 games without a goal while making 11 it’s a huge problem. He feels like a mismatched part in a team built on speed and skill.

There’s no excuse for a player of his pay grade to have one secondary PP assist after three games when the team has scored 13 goals, no matter how many face offs he wins and ‘little things’ he does.

 

[ALine]

Intangibles equals having the heart not to fade or crumble in front of overwhelming pressure. It means you never give up and never stop trying. Something JT does not exemplify.

Sundin played in a different era. Salaries did not matter for most of his career. And when his contract became a bag after '05, his past accomplishments were quickly overlooked because he was over the hill and near retirement. So it's sad what he got but this is the business of pro sports. JT is taking us for a ride and deserves to be criticized.

Intangibles as you defined it, is such a nebulous concept. It’s easy to write up a bunch of superlatives and call it facts.

Tavares, hometown boy, bleeds blue as the ultimate captain for sacrificing personal glory in putting up points to be a shutdown presence. Eats pressure for breakfast, never getting rattled. Taking hits to make plays Taking the hard matchups so others don’t have too. Being a true leader by setting the tone for serious hard work up and down the line, for all to follow.
Captain John Tavares, heart of a lion. Unwavering and steadfast. A true leader

You can’t really argue it’s because it’s an opinion piece, just as your write up of Sundin

Johnny is fine. Quit worrying so much after three games. If the Leafs go a run here this year, no doubt he will find his way on the score sheet more. I’d rather have Tavares @11 than any other C that could have realistically been signed or traded for plus another 3rd/4th liner with the savings.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

We traded a beloved Canadian captain for a young Swedish player and that didn't earn Sundin the warmest welcome. By the end of his career people wanted to cash him in to start the rebuild and he was branded as Muskoka 5 guy. In the middle years there were times the Leafs wanted to move him for guys like Rob Blake or Eric Lindros and talk about him not being intense like Clark or Gilmour, but it wasn't the same as JT's struggles.

I'm well aware of all of that.

 

[freshwind]

Sundin was a god in this city and if it wasn't for him being European the fans and media would've never gotten away with how he was treated towards the end. He's still hurt about it and rarely comes back here. He was the heart and soul of the Leafs for a decade, and brought everything to this team that a captain should bring.

and the narrative every one forgets is he wanted to come back, it was burke that did not offer a contract ... he had had a verbal with fletcher which burke rescinded ...

 

[Stephen]

I'm well aware of all of that.

Right. So don't try to make the comparison between Mats Sundin and his decade and half of service with the Leafs, winning over an initially unreceptive fanbase to a hometown guy like Tavares who came home, got the red carpet and has been underachieving. It's not the same thing.

 

[Stephen]

and the narrative every one forgets is he wanted to come back, it was burke that did not offer a contract ... he had had a verbal with fletcher which burke rescinded ...

The way Brian Burke treated Mats was not right. I would surmise his failure of a build would have come out a lot better had Sundin stayed the extra year or year and a half and imparted some of his experience on the newer crop.

 

[Shooter2x]

Ask these teams letting in 5,6,7 goals a game in the playoffs if they don't need a Tavares in the lineup.

 

[Mr Bill Waters]

Ask these teams letting in 5,6,7 goals a game in the playoffs if they don't need a Tavares in the lineup.

Tavares has been there done that. Look for him to steady the hands of our young stars.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

Right. So don't try to make the comparison between Mats Sundin and his decade and half of service with the Leafs, winning over an initially unreceptive fanbase to a hometown guy like Tavares who came home, got the red carpet and has been underachieving. It's not the same thing.

Sigh. He's not underachieving. He's ppg which is the same as mats? His leadership is constantly questioned just like mats. Like dude. Just because you don't want to see it, that's fine. There are similarities. If the leads win the cup this year and Tavares lifts it all will be forgotten....just like after Toronto initial non canadian captain, not earned it yet mats?

 

[sxvnert]

Leafs are better off putting JT on a defensive line wing.

Nylander-Matthews-Marner
Mikheyev-Kampf-Tavares
Engvall-Kerfoot-Kase
Bunting-Blackwell-Spezza

I don’t think he is worth $11 million, but you do end up overpaying on the FA market; that is just the nature of the beast, and the OP is obviously wrong, he isn’t a “replacement level” player; he is still in the top-10-15 centre range in the NHL.

That 11m overpayment led to the rest demanding far more than they would have had he not raised the bar. The trickel effect of his signing was a disaster for our cup chances.

Oh, he’s been winning face offs, David Kampf also wins face offs.

The media always jumps ahead of a potential story to run damage control for the team. Its why Dubas still has a job after last seasons train wreck.

 

[francis246]

Oh, he’s been winning face offs, David Kampf also wins face offs.

Stamkos has also been a dud - but at least he’s getting quality looks on the PP, could easily have 2-3 goals by now.

In the playoffs where there’s no cap it’s not a problem, but during the regular season when he goes 14 games without a goal while making 11 it’s a huge problem. He feels like a mismatched part in a team built on speed and skill.

There’s no excuse for a player of his pay grade to have one secondary PP assist after three games when the team has scored 13 goals, no matter how many face offs he wins and ‘little things’ he does.

are we in the regular season or are we in the f***ing playoffs right now?

Playoffs, so who gives a shit about who scores a goal. All that matters is winning 4 games each series. I could give a rats ass who scores as long as we win.

 

[Leafblooded]

and the narrative every one forgets is he wanted to come back, it was burke that did not offer a contract ... he had had a verbal with fletcher which burke rescinded ...

Sundin in a nucks jersey was

 

[Gabriel426]

How is JT similar to Sundin? Beside they play C and captain, both being #1 overall picks and it stops there.
Sundin came via trading Clark(Captain of the Leafs) away.
JT came via UFA and is arguably the biggest UFA signings ever.
Sundin came with the expectations of Leafs future after Dougie and his crew.
JT came with the expectations to win the Cup right away while he leads AM, MM and WN to their prime.
Sundin endured times where the Leafs were sellers at TDL and didn’t make the playoffs.
JT times at the Leafs sofar were record breaking seasons and 1st round exits.
Sundin was always by far the best player on the Leafs.
JT at best was 2nd best if not 3rd best on the Leafs.

Where are the similarities?

 

[JKG33]

I love how missing him last year was the reason they lost to the Habs, yet this year he sucks and is holding the team back... which is it Leafs nation?

 

[DarkKnight]

Everytime this board starts stringing him up, he comes up with a game.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

WOULD YOU SIGN TAVARES ? (Source)








Wrong as usual.

This is hilarious because a few posters (crazy people) have told me recently that Dubas and mlse would have taken MASSIVE heat if they didn't sign Tavares.

Lol. I made the argument that most leaf fans would have fully understood.

And look at that thread. Most leaf fans knew it would be a bad idea. LOL. Can't make this stuff up.

@keonsbitterness

 

[3blizzard4]

This is hilarious because a few posters (crazy people) have told me recently that Dubas and mlse would have taken MASSIVE heat if they didn't sign Tavares.

Lol. I made the argument that most leaf fans would have fully understood.

And look at that thread. Most leaf fans knew it would be a bad idea. LOL. Can't make this stuff up.

@keonsbitterness

Marner didn’t have many fans on his side back then lol

And reading that 2017 thread, Nylander was perceived as the second coming.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Tavares has been trash. Brings literally zero emotion to the game. He is a piss poor captain.

Sigh. He's not underachieving. He's ppg which is the same as mats? His leadership is constantly questioned just like mats. Like dude. Just because you don't want to see it, that's fine. There are similarities. If the leads win the cup this year and Tavares lifts it all will be forgotten....just like after Toronto initial non canadian captain, not earned it yet mats?

Point per game regular season doesnt mean anything at this point. Hes been terrible.