John Tavares Discussion

[Nylanderthal]

He was signed as a bonafide 1C though, and he's also on a predictably steep decline. He makes more money than everyone on this list and has never done jack shit in the playoffs.


Well, that's what this thread is about so...

He finished 18th in scoring for C’s in the league this year having what we all see as a down season.
That’s really good, especially considering the other aspects of the game he excels at that put the team in winning situations.
Take. A. Lap.

 

[Shooter2x]

He was signed as a bonafide 1C though, and he's also on a predictably steep decline. He makes more money than everyone on this list and has never done jack shit in the playoffs.


Well, that's what this thread is about so...

Don't think you know how acquiring assets works in the NHL. We are fortunate to have Tavares as 2C even if he's no longer worth 11 mil. Consider it residual costs to acquire a 2C of this calibre the way we did.

People keep referencing Kadri yet leave out that they'd take Tavares @ 11 mil over Kadri all the previous seasons and again as soon as next season if Kadri goes back to being a 50-60 point guy and Tavares hits 80.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He was signed as a bonafide 1C though, and he's also on a predictably steep decline. He makes more money than everyone on this list and has never done jack shit in the playoffs.

Well he significantly outproduces the vast majority of that list and a significant portion of the #1 C.

Don't think you know how acquiring assets works in the NHL. We are fortunate to have Tavares as 2C even if he's no longer worth 11 mil. Consider it residual costs to acquire a 2C of this calibre the way we did.

People keep referencing Kadri yet leave out that they'd take Tavares @ 11 mil over Kadri all the previous seasons and again as soon as next season if Kadri goes back to being a 50-60 point guy and Tavares hits 80.

That's the thing, year after year after year he's the same Pt/GP player. How many other players can you say that about? We basically have Sundin on our second line.

 

[Havoc]

Don't think you know how acquiring assets works in the NHL. We are fortunate to have Tavares as 2C even if he's no longer worth 11 mil. Consider it residual costs to acquire a 2C of this calibre the way we did.

People keep referencing Kadri yet leave out that they'd take Tavares @ 11 mil over Kadri all the previous seasons and again as soon as next season if Kadri goes back to being a 50-60 point guy and Tavares hits 80.

To add onto this, the people referencing Kadri would probably also choose Tavares if they had to put money on betting who hits 80 points next season between Tavares or Kadri

All the Tavares haters sitting there hiding their wallets like damn he's right. Lock this stupid thread up honestly.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Holl is a bigger concern than Tavares is but I'm glade we are up 2-1

 

[Leafblooded]

Don't think you know how acquiring assets works in the NHL. We are fortunate to have Tavares as 2C even if he's no longer worth 11 mil. Consider it residual costs to acquire a 2C of this calibre the way we did.

People keep referencing Kadri yet leave out that they'd take Tavares @ 11 mil over Kadri all the previous seasons and again as soon as next season if Kadri goes back to being a 50-60 point guy and Tavares hits 80.

I was hugely disappointed when the Leafs traded Naz, he bleeds blue and white and actually played with a chip on his shoulder. I knew he was gone as soon as they signed Tavares, and it was one of the reasons I did not support the JT signing. Had JT been good for us? On/off, yes, however he will never live up to his contract unless the Leafs win a cup... and that will be difficult with that saddle of a contract. Naz would've been half the money also, for 75 percent of the production and five times the heart.

Well he significantly outproduces the vast majority of that list and a significant portion of the #1 C.


That's the thing, year after year after year he's the same Pt/GP player. How many other players can you say that about? We basically have Sundin on our second line.

Sundin without all the intangibles, in a salary cap era where Sundin barely ever played. Sundin's my favourite player of all time, I grew up revering him, but the amount of flack he got in this city was epic. When it came down to it, he was run out of town just like JT will be.

 

[ALine]

I was hugely disappointed when the Leafs traded Naz, he bleeds blue and white and actually played with a chip on his shoulder. I knew he was gone as soon as they signed Tavares, and it was one of the reasons I did not support the JT signing. Had JT been good for us? On/off, yes, however he will never live up to his contract unless the Leafs win a cup... and that will be difficult with that saddle of a contract. Naz would've been half the money also, for 75 percent of the production and five times the heart.


Sundin without all the intangibles, in a salary cap era where Sundin barely ever played. Sundin's my favourite player of all time, I grew up revering him, but the amount of flack he got in this city was epic. When it came down to it, he was run out of town just like JT will be.

2 questions
Can you define intangibles?
Do you agree with the amount of flak Sundin received leading to his departure?

 

[Mr_Fun]

If AM doesn't score next game, I expect to see a similar thread for him (even if we win).

 

[Leafblooded]

2 questions
Can you define intangibles?
Do you agree with the amount of flak Sundin received leading to his departure?

Intangibles equals having the heart not to fade or crumble in front of overwhelming pressure. It means you never give up and never stop trying. Something JT does not exemplify.

Sundin played in a different era. Salaries did not matter for most of his career. And when his contract became a bag after '05, his past accomplishments were quickly overlooked because he was over the hill and near retirement. So it's sad what he got but this is the business of pro sports. JT is taking us for a ride and deserves to be criticized.

 

[WillyC]

Yeah except he's helped them win back to back cups, while we here in Toronto haven't even seen one of those since the days of black and white TV

So, you’re not defending the crybabies on the TB forum?… just the crybabies here.

 

[Stephen]

I wasn't and am not saying they are similar players, I'm saying the situation they are in is similar. Both captains, both seen as underachievers in that role. Both were lit up daily on message boards. That's all I'm saying. I never said of meant to say they are equal or have similar skill sets. The only thing I see similar about them is their defense, slow, and good around the net.

That's the thing though. Sundin wasn't lit up daily on these boards. When he came to the city there was still this old school Canadian vs European angle and getting traded for Wendel certainly didn't ingratiate himself at the beginning, but he won the majority of the fanbase over and was seen as a star on an island that never put the right supporting cast around him.

Game in game out, year in year out, he gave about 1 goal or 1 assist like clockwork and had a flair for scoring big OT goals. Sundin was also never slow. He was obviously not a roadrunner but played the entire 200 feet of ice any pace you want.

 

[Voodoo Child]

I’m not here to defend JT’s play, it’s been bad - and too many times this year has it been bad, even though he does eventually return for a nice heater.

But someone said Stamkos led Tampa to two cups. Steven Stamkos?

He didn’t even play in one of the runs!

Those cups were Vasilevskiy, Hedman, Kucherov, Point and Palat in about that order and then maybe Stamkos with Gourde, Killorn and McDonagh.

He’s not a choker but he hasn’t ever carried the team on his back (like Vasi, Hedman, Kucherov and Point have).

 

[Stephen]

Well he significantly outproduces the vast majority of that list and a significant portion of the #1 C.


That's the thing, year after year after year he's the same Pt/GP player. How many other players can you say that about? We basically have Sundin on our second line.

No we don't have another Sundin on our second line. Sundin and Tavares both achieve a similar stats line year to year but it would be as inaccurate as saying Rick Vaive and Dave Andreychuk were Auston Matthews level players because they're all in the 50 goal club here. There's no equivalency in terms of context, service time and career, team environment, actual 5 on 5 impact, play styles, etc.

 

[2 Slick]

I've been waiting and waiting for Tavares to make me eat crow like Campbell has done in the playoffs, but it hasn't happened yet. Very disappointing to see how awful he's been besides his faceoff proficiency. He's got time to get back into it, but needs to start in game 4.

 

[Stephen]

I’m not here to defend JT’s play, it’s been bad - and too many times this year has it been bad, even though he does eventually return for a nice heater.

But someone said Stamkos led Tampa to two cups. Steven Stamkos?

He didn’t even play in one of the runs!

Those cups were Vasilevskiy, Hedman, Kucherov, Point and Palat in about that order and then maybe Stamkos with Gourde, Killorn and McDonagh.

He’s not a choker but he hasn’t ever carried the team on his back (like Vasi, Hedman, Kucherov and Point have).

Stammer is traditionally not the straw that stirs the Tampa playoff drink.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I was hugely disappointed when the Leafs traded Naz, he bleeds blue and white and actually played with a chip on his shoulder. I knew he was gone as soon as they signed Tavares, and it was one of the reasons I did not support the JT signing. Had JT been good for us? On/off, yes, however he will never live up to his contract unless the Leafs win a cup... and that will be difficult with that saddle of a contract. Naz would've been half the money also, for 75 percent of the production and five times the heart.


Sundin without all the intangibles, in a salary cap era where Sundin barely ever played. Sundin's my favourite player of all time, I grew up revering him, but the amount of flack he got in this city was epic. When it came down to it, he was run out of town just like JT will be.

What exactly are all those intangibles you feel Tavares doesn't have?

 

[Warden of the North]

Imagine substituting Tavares for a top-tier goalie or defenseman in the league. The Leafs would be way better positioned to win the Stanley Cup.

.....imagine that you could give a realistic scenario for acquiring said top tier defenseman

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

No we don't have another Sundin on our second line. Sundin and Tavares both achieve a similar stats line year to year but it would be as inaccurate as saying Rick Vaive and Dave Andreychuk were Auston Matthews level players because they're all in the 50 goal club here. There's no equivalency in terms of context, service time and career, team environment, actual 5 on 5 impact, play styles, etc.

Most of what is listed there is pretty meh on the relevance scale.

 

[Gabriel426]

JT was signed to lead the Leafs to Cup(s). He was not signed to be the best player on the team bc we know AM would be that player. This is the time of signing so for all those Super Marner’s fans, this is not a slight to MM.
Sofar he had not even lead the Leafs past the first round.
Hopefully this is the year he does it.
As long as the Leafs win the Cup, I could careless what each player is making.

 

[Stephen]

Most of what is listed there is pretty meh on the relevance scale.

Not really.

A Sundin to Tavares comparison can only be made based on the fact that both guys wore the C and score about 1 PPG in any regular season. No similarities exist between those players beyond that.

Sundin didn't play second fiddle to a much bigger star center, he didn't have a Marner equivalent during his career year in Toronto, played the bulk of his prime in the "Dead Puck Era", scored his 1 PPG pace well into his late 30s with no real decline (Tavares is 31 and we talk about him like he's Spezza/Marleau), was a clutch scorer. And he played the entire 200 feet of ice any pace, any style you wanted and elevated guys like Ponikarovsky and Antropov very late in his career. (Let's see Tavares score 80 points on a line with Engvall and Mikheyev for comparison).

 

[deltamachine]

Sundin dragged around a 200 lb anchor named Jonus Freakin Hoglund and turned him into a 20+ goal scorer. 'nuff said.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I was hugely disappointed when the Leafs traded Naz, he bleeds blue and white and actually played with a chip on his shoulder. I knew he was gone as soon as they signed Tavares, and it was one of the reasons I did not support the JT signing. Had JT been good for us? On/off, yes, however he will never live up to his contract unless the Leafs win a cup... and that will be difficult with that saddle of a contract. Naz would've been half the money also, for 75 percent of the production and five times the heart.


Sundin without all the intangibles, in a salary cap era where Sundin barely ever played. Sundin's my favourite player of all time, I grew up revering him, but the amount of flack he got in this city was epic. When it came down to it, he was run out of town just like JT will be.

Lots what ifs and other nonsense In here.

 

[zeke]

Miserable people

 

[A1LeafNation]

Who's playing #2C?

Who playing #1C in case there is a Mattews injury?

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Who playing #1C in case there is a Mattews injury?

Won't matter, Matthews is the only player outside of Campbell where if he's injured you may as well start booking your tee times.