Joe Pavelski Officially Retires

[OrrNumber4]

Yes year 1 of heatley in teal. But marleau's peak happened before that time, 2005-06 to 2009-10 (so 1 year of being a winger and with Thornton full time)

For me Marleau's peak was 2009-2011, and his prime was 2008-2014...ish? 2007-2008 was the worst season of his career, and 2006 wasn't great either.

Which just goes to show that Marleau's real value was his long career.

That’s not really fair, as the Norris has always been more about points than defensive acumen. Vlasic was easily one of the best defenseman in the NHL for a good amount of his prime, he just didn’t score enough to get awards.

Hmm...At his peak, I'd say Vlasic was at the outer edge of the top 10 defensemen in the league. I don't think he was even the best defenseman on the team outside of the 2014 season (maybe 2012-2013), but my memory is fuzzy.

 

[gaucholoco3]

That’s fair, but that criteria also brings Vlasic into the conversation.

I would argue that Vlassic’s peak was greater than Marleau, Pavelski, or Kipprusoff. If the Norris wasn’t a best offensive defenseman award he would have won multiple. There were multiple seasons where he was the absolute best shut down D in the league.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Sounds like he’s open to the management side of things hopefully it’s with the sharks

Trying to get the Pavelski thread back on track...I think he's one of those odd ducks who actually dislikes warm California weather and wants to have seasons. I suspect if he works with the Sharks it would be as a scout based in Midwest-USA.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Pavelski exclusively played wing from 2012 on. Basically after Couture’s rookie season he was entrenched in 2C and obviously Thornton was 1C. Pavelski’s best seasons came on great teams on the wing of the greatest playmaking forward of all time.

I love Pavs but I feel like he’s getting historically overrated because we like him. I’ve always felt that people overrated Pavelski because he wasn’t Thornton or Marleau and it was popular to hate on Thornton and Marleau. So Pavelski became the “I’m not anti-Sharks because I shit on Thornton and Marleau all the time, I like Pavelski!!” guy for non-Sharks fans and the “Pavelski isn’t a choker like Thornton and Marleau!!” cope for Sharks fans.

I’m posting this fully knowing that y’all are gonna come at me for “hating” on Pavelski. Love the guy, hate the deification.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Pavelski exclusively played wing from 2012 on. Basically after Couture’s rookie season he was entrenched in 2C and obviously Thornton was 1C. Pavelski’s best seasons came on great teams on the wing of the greatest playmaking forward of all time.

I love Pavs but I feel like he’s getting historically overrated because we like him. I’ve always felt that people overrated Pavelski because he wasn’t Thornton or Marleau and it was popular to hate on Thornton and Marleau. So Pavelski became the “I’m not anti-Sharks because I shit on Thornton and Marleau all the time, I like Pavelski!!” guy for non-Sharks fans and the “Pavelski isn’t a choker like Thornton and Marleau!!” cope for Sharks fans.

I’m posting this fully knowing that y’all are gonna come at me for “hating” on Pavelski. Love the guy, hate the deification.

Not the right time to be criticizing a player either. Retirement threads should be full of glazing (as the kids say).

I'll add that no player is free of playoff hiccups. But Pavelski had substantially fewer of them than many of his teammates, and many series and runs where he was excellent. Like Couture, he was one of those guys who came into the NHL as a 3-zone, all-around player.

 

[Barrie22]

Not the right time to be criticizing a player either. Retirement threads should be full of glazing (as the kids say).

I'll add that no player is free of playoff hiccups. But Pavelski had substantially fewer of them than many of his teammates, and many series and runs where he was excellent. Like Couture, he was one of those guys who came into the NHL as a 3-zone, all-around player.

Agreed with should be praising, but pavelski is also 1 of only 2 shark top players to get a stat line of 0,0,0 in a series.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Agreed with should be praising, but pavelski is also 1 of only 2 shark top players to get a stat line of 0,0,0 in a series.

He's also 1 of only 2 Shark top players to get 14 goals in a playoff year.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I have no issue with the thread praising Pavelski and he was an outstanding player that I miss being on the Sharks.

That said it is completely acceptable to state his place in Sharks history which I think he does not deserve to have his number retired. Marleau and Thornton are clear HOF’ers. Pavelski is most likely on the outside looking in. He was great and a fan favorite but not on the level of Thornton and Marleau.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I have no issue with the thread praising Pavelski and he was an outstanding player that I miss being on the Sharks.

That said it is completely acceptable to state his place in Sharks history which I think he does not deserve to have his number retired. Marleau and Thornton are clear HOF’ers. Pavelski is most likely on the outside looking in. He was great and a fan favorite but not on the level of Thornton and Marleau.

You do a disservice having Marleau and Thornton in the same sentence! Marleau's not on the same level as Joe Thornton, who has an Art Ross and Hart to his name, as well as many top-10 scoring finishes and other accolades.

Marleau will probably get into the HHOF because he has the GP record and longevity with an expansion franchise. I respect the opinion that due to that, and Marleau's long career, he's a greater Shark than Pavelski...but I think that Pavelski has a strong case based on his peak/prime performance.

I think what kind of cements it for me is these two thought experiments:

1) If I had a must-win series, who would I rather take? Peak/Prime Pavelski or Marleau?
I'd take peak or prime Pavelski over either version of Marleau

2) If I had a must-win series every season (say 1998-2019) and had the choice between Pavelski and Marleau as they were in their careers...I'd still take Pavelski (barely), even though that means 6 more years where I have nobody.

Ah, the offseason.

 

[gaucholoco3]

You do a disservice having Marleau and Thornton in the same sentence! Marleau's not on the same level as Joe Thornton, who has an Art Ross and Hart to his name, as well as many top-10 scoring finishes and other accolades.

Marleau will probably get into the HHOF because he has the GP record and longevity with an expansion franchise. I respect the opinion that due to that, and Marleau's long career, he's a greater Shark than Pavelski...but I think that Pavelski has a strong case based on his peak/prime performance.

I think what kind of cements it for me is these two thought experiments:

1) If I had a must-win series, who would I rather take? Peak/Prime Pavelski or Marleau?
I'd take peak or prime Pavelski over either version of Marleau

2) If I had a must-win series every season (say 1998-2019) and had the choice between Pavelski and Marleau as they were in their careers...I'd still take Pavelski (barely), even though that means 6 more years where I have nobody.

I completely agree that Marleau and Thornton are on completely different levels.

When looking at impact on an organization which retiring numbers is the longevity has to be more important than who had the best peak or who would I want to win a single playoff series.

EK65 had the greatest season of any Sharks defenseman in history. Does that mean he has a greater impact on the Sharks as Boyle or Vlassic because his peak was literally one of the best seasons ever by a defenseman of all time?

Longevity and historical impact is what should judge a player getting their number retired and I think Pavs was outstanding but didn’t come close to impacting the organization as much as Marleau.

 

[OrrNumber4]

When looking at impact on an organization which retiring numbers is the longevity has to be more important than who had the best peak or who would I want to win a single playoff series.

The way I see it, everything matters; I just weight peak/prime more.

EK65 had the greatest season of any Sharks defenseman in history. Does that mean he has a greater impact on the Sharks as Boyle or Vlassic because his peak was literally one of the best seasons ever by a defenseman of all time?

No, because he was only with the Sharks, what, 5 seasons? 3 of which were uninspiring?

Longevity and historical impact is what should judge a player getting their number retired and I think Pavs was outstanding but didn’t come close to impacting the organization as much as Marleau.

We just disagree. Especially during the playoffs, Pavelski was very often the best forward on the ice (if not the best player). Except for maybe 30-40 games in 2004 and the first part of 2005-2006, Marleau has always been, at best, second-fiddle on the forward corps (and worse overall). Pavelski was the best forward on the Sharks between 2013-2016, and probably the best player from 2013-2015.

Let's not forget that Marleau, quite appropriately, lost the "C".

 

[Hangemhigh]

So Pavelski not retiring as a Shark? I guess he is still pissed?

 

[jMoneyBrah]

This is a pretty wild take. Kiprusoff didn’t become an NHL starter until the was 27. Don’t get me wrong, he had a good career once he got to that point with impressive durability, but it was essentially 9 seasons. Pavelski and Marleau both played 18+ seasons. I certainly appreciate what Kiprusoff did in his career but I don’t think he’s in the conversation for best Sharks draft pick ever.

Nabokov erasure. Nabby tops Kiprusoff in many categories, and is pretty closely ranked on the ones he didn’t top him with. I give Kipper the Vezina trophy, runner-up, and finalist nods to Nabby’s Vezina runner-up and Calder trophy. Kipper has the cup finals run, but never won a playoff series after that. Nabby with better win rate in elimination games. Nabby with roughly 50% longer career as a productive goalie.

My point being, I don’t think you can consider including Kiprusoff in this conversation without also including Nabokov with him. To be clear I’m no Nabby stan (I like him, but am fully aware of the warts too). But, frankly I don’t think either approach the bodies of work Pavelski and Marleau put together.

 

[Cas]

So Pavelski not retiring as a Shark? I guess he is still pissed?

In the end, I don't think "retiring as an X" really means anything.

Signing a ceremonial one-day contract has always seemed so pointlessly gimmicky that it doesn't have any impact on me - it's not even an old tradition.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

One day contract to retire with a certain team are stupid, no one ever remembers if someone did it or not

 

[ChompChomp]

So Pavelski not retiring as a Shark? I guess he is still pissed?

To be fair, Thornton didn't do it either. Hell, Thornton didn't even give a thank you fans message/article/etc when he left in free agency.

The only counterpoint, is that Thornton may do the ceremonial one day thing on his jersey retirement day and skate out of the Shark head one last time. Jagr took pregame warmups the same day the Pens retired his jersey.

 

[ChompChomp]

Put it this way. Does anyone actually think the Sharks will ever give #8 to anyone else, ever again?

No. That's why at some point he'll get his jersey retired. Maybe even this Spring, but 25-26 seems most likely.

 

[tiburon12]

Pavs playing 963 games as a Shark and 369 games as a Star is numerologicaly awesome

 

[rubenflamshep]

What a career. Best point pace of any 37-year-old in the last 20 years.

 

[karltonian]

What do you consider peak?

If it is when it was at there best statistically then that doesn't fit for pavelski in a sharks uniform. As marleau has him beat in goals and points in a season.

Pavs only had 1 80 point season (didn’t happen as a shark), marleau had 2. Pavs had 3 70 point seasons, marleau had 3.

and marleau had those seasons in a lower scoring era
pavs was great but he is not jersey retirement material.

 

[karltonian]

Put it this way. Does anyone actually think the Sharks will ever give #8 to anyone else, ever again?

Yes ,easily

 

[karltonian]

You do a disservice having Marleau and Thornton in the same sentence! Marleau's not on the same level as Joe Thornton, who has an Art Ross and Hart to his name, as well as many top-10 scoring finishes and other accolades.

Marleau will probably get into the HHOF because he has the GP record and longevity with an expansion franchise. I respect the opinion that due to that, and Marleau's long career, he's a greater Shark than Pavelski...but I think that Pavelski has a strong case based on his peak/prime performance.

I think what kind of cements it for me is these two thought experiments:

1) If I had a must-win series, who would I rather take? Peak/Prime Pavelski or Marleau?
I'd take peak or prime Pavelski over either version of Marleau

2) If I had a must-win series every season (say 1998-2019) and had the choice between Pavelski and Marleau as they were in their careers...I'd still take Pavelski (barely), even though that means 6 more years where I have nobody.

Ah, the offseason.

I take marleau. Marleau impacted the game on his own, Pavelski was an excellent complementary player. Pavs could not carry a 1st line, Marleau could.

 

[OrrNumber4]

and marleau had those seasons in a lower scoring era
pavs was great but he is not jersey retirement material.

How many seasons did Marleau finish top-10 in scoring? How many did Pavelski?

I take marleau. Marleau impacted the game in his own, Pavelski was an excellent complementary player. Pavs could not carry a line, Marleau could.

In that way, both were complementary players, though I'd argue that at times Pavelski was at least the best player on his line (if not the team).

Marleau did carry Michalek and Bernier into the dirt. The fact that he couldn't carry a line as a center is part of why he was moved to wing.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I gotta say it's a great problem to have as a franchise when you've had Thornton, Marleau and Pavelski at their prime in your team. They all did a lot for this franchise, they were close to a Stanley Cup in 2016 and they all played high caliber hockey until they were around their 40's (which is crazy in it's own)
At the end of the day, no matter how much we compare them to each other... their history is now written with this team. We were lucky as fans with those players being here for so long.

 

[Barrie22]

The way the franchise best players list goes it is like.

Thornton

Big gap

Marleau

Sizeable gap

Pavelski