Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[salbutera]

NJD? You talking about the 90s trap era Devils?

Islanders?

Hmmm..not sure they really applies but let's say it does.

Pointing out the exception doesn't make it the rule.

Barry Trotz is an amazing coach...there aren't too many coaches in the NHL who get as much out of their players as he does and when he's coaching the Montreal Canadiens.

I might changr my stance on that...but until then....

I’m sure Dom Dom could get a lot out of Barzal if he actually had anywhere near such a talent to work with

 

[417]

Oh believe me, I remember him crying about how he'd rather be sent to the AHL than be used on a 4th line. But in the end, the guy reapeatedly got opportunities with Gomez and Gionta, and he just wasn't up to the task. That's why he could not deliver and that's why he was always sent back in a depth role.

Good then...so you'll remember that despite initially starting off on the top line, Martin, just like every other coach after him, had a short leash with Pacioretty and they first sign of struggles.

Guess who became the scapegoat?

So it wasn't long before he went from 1st line, to 3rd, 4th, healthy scratch...

Until he was demoted to the AHL and he finally asked the organization to leave him in the AHL so he could play MEANINGFUL MINUTES in a role that would replicate why they drafted him.

Do you not see the correlation here??

He was given opportunities. He was not a 4th line player/healthy scratch from the get-go like you're trying to push as a fact.

Sigh...he had a short leash, just like Kotmaniemi has.

It wasnt until HE himself asked to be left in the AHL did the team finally commit to giving him a real opportunity in the top 6.

That being said...when he was given his real opportunity, Pacioretty to his credit seized it and never looked back.

And KK will have to do the same...WHEN HE TOO IS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY THE ROLE HE WAS DRAFTED TO PLAY IN.

If your narrative was any true, the simple fact to have 1st line minutes and being put on a line with Gionta and Gomez should have been enough to make him produce in the first place. But it didn't. And the guy ultimately had success when he came back.

Something happened in between and it's not that he got a "better opportunity". He simply made progress and was ready for a bigger role. And this time, the coaching staff could not bring him back down the lineup, because he proved he was ready to take on the role. Not because they felt like keeping him there.

Again...if you're still parotting the narrative that KK has been given opportunity after opportunity and just dropped the ball every time.

I can't help you.

 

[417]

I’m sure Dom Dom could get a lot out of Barzal if he actually had anywhere near such a talent to work with

Or he'd be playing 15 mins a game behind a defensive minded center like the Habs have done for I don't know...the last 2 decades.

There was Danault...before him was Plekanec...before him was Bonk...before him was Juneau.

The Habs just love prioritizing defensive minded centers above all.

 

[DAChampion]

Or he'd be playing 15 mins a game behind a defensive minded center like the Habs have done for I don't know...the last 2 decades.

There was Danault...before him was Plekanec...before him was Bonk...before him was Juneau.

The Habs just love prioritizing defensive minded centers above all.

Except for Desharnais, who got coddled in spite of being catastrophic defensively.

 

[salbutera]

Except for Desharnais, who got coddled in spite of being catastrophic defensively.

Plekanec always got the tough matchups even then

 

[Skip Bayless]

I would be mad as hell. I can't handle any more Kostitsyns and Galchenyuks.

At least KK could end up being defensively reliable. But it would be another L for Timmins in the top 5, which is unacceptable for an org. who prides themselves on refusing to rebuild.

 

[salbutera]

At least KK could end up being defensively reliable. But it would be another L for Timmins in the top 5, which is unacceptable for an org. who prides themselves on refusing to rebuild.

AKos was a cluster of epic proportions by Timmins (right alongside Serge Savard simply watching the parade go buy as the Berlin Wall crumbled), but there’s nothing than can be done when the 2012 & 2018 draft class is weak

 

[TopTenPlayz]

I'm as harsh a Timmins' critic as you will ever find, but I don’t think we've handled Kotkaniemi particularly well.

You draft a project, you admit on draft day that he's a project, and you start him in the NHL at 18?

Yeah biceps club needs yo be replaced

 

[417]

I'm as harsh a Timmins' critic as you will ever find, but I don’t think we've handled Kotkaniemi particularly well.

You draft a project, you admit on draft day that he's a project, and you start him in the NHL at 18?

Nothing wrong with that really...you draft a project and you work with him.

The problem is

A. They haven't worked with him...he's just been a jersey-filler for the most part

B. Most fans/media didn't hear the part about him being a project, if they did, they wouldn't be throwing in the towel at the ripe old age of ....21.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Disagree. Trotz used Cizikas a lot in the defensive zone and all you see is he played "4th line" which is flawed. Islanders roll lines like we do. Cizikas is very underrated as a defensive center who takes a lot of draws in his own end.

Danault is all around better but not as substantial as you think.... especially when you look at usage and if Cizikas gets increased ice time. I bet you have haven't even watched Cizikas that much and it's similar to Chiarot with the Jets. He was effective but blocked from more minutes

We should go after Eichel. If that falls though... get someone to take defensive draws with Evans. Don't over think it

There is no circumstance where we should offer this guy 4million. None.

 

[Redux91]

I would be mad as hell. I can't handle any more Kostitsyns and Galchenyuks.

Neither one of those 2 are anything remotely close to a 3rd line C lol..

 

[LaP]

I think Suzuki’s development curve is steeper than KK from age 19-21. KK is a longer gradual one and you won’t know his ceiling until 22/23 ish

He's 21 next season. He really should start to get closer to his ceiling. Nobody is saying he should have reached his ceiling yet just that he should not be at 50% of it. He really need to take a step next season and get closer to what he could be.

 

[LaP]

AKos was a cluster of epic proportions by Timmins (right alongside Serge Savard simply watching the parade go buy as the Berlin Wall crumbled), but there’s nothing than can be done when the 2012 & 2018 draft class is weak

Way too soon to say 2018 was weak. No bona fide outside of the top 2 but that's usually how it is.

 

[Jakomyte]

Nothing wrong with that really...you draft a project and you work with him.

The problem is

A. They haven't worked with him...he's just been a jersey-filler for the most part

B. Most fans/media didn't hear the part about him being a project, if they did, they wouldn't be throwing in the towel at the ripe old age of ....21.

I think this is what many fans don't get.

When KK was drafted, it was because of the player he was projected to be during his prime (~23-32 years old, give or take). That hasn't changed. The surprise was that at 18 years old he was able to hold his own in the NHL. This did not mean that all of a sudden he was going to enter his prime at 19 or 20 years old, it meant that he could develop and learn at the NHL level.

Basically any contribution we got from KK during his first three seasons (and maybe his next 1-2 as well depending on his usage) should be looked at as a bonus. He may have '3 NHL seasons' under his belt, but he is still just about to start his age 21 season. Add to that the fact that he's European, and needs more time to adjust to the NA game, and there's even more reason to require patience.

He may never be an all-star (although it's still possible), but he still has lots of time to grow into the player he will be in his prime. At some point, he will also have to be given a legit opportunity to run with a top 6 center job for an extended period of time with good, consistent wingers too. I'm hoping this season will be that time, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[salbutera]

Way too soon to say 2018 was weak.

The separation has already stated to show as expected from Svechnikov to post 2OA

 

[LaP]

The separation has already stated to show as expected from Svechnikov to post 2OA

Obviously but i don't think you can say right now with 100% certainty that nobody behind JK will be better. Lot of guys are in their first season not their 3rd. When it comes to 2012 there really was not much AG is still 2nd in points ... there was better options but nothing in the 1st round that would have changed the face of the team outside of maybe Rielly. I'll be surprised if 2018 is as weak as 2012 it look more promising to me.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Best way to be a top defensive team is to put pressure on teams offensively and not only own the puck (which the Habs are pretty good at) but also execute plays that turn into goals (something the Habs struggle with).

No great defensive team spends their time defending.

When you have the dmen we have you will be spending a substantial part of your time defending. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Heffyhoof]

Well first off, Hoffman is much more of a goal scorer than Anderson. Can't compare Hoffman to Anderson IMO. But I will concede that KK played more with Toffoli than I originally thought.

Anyways, here are the top line combos with TOI and % for the 2020-21 regular season. Oh and KK averaged 14:48 TOI this year (Regualar Season).

1	85:53	11.9	JOSH ANDERSON - JONATHAN DROUIN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
2	67:06	9.3	COREY PERRY - TYLER TOFFOLI - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
3	58:58	8.2	JOEL ARMIA - ARTTURI LEHKONEN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
4	55:18	7.6	TYLER TOFFOLI - JOEL ARMIA - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
5	47:53	6.6	PAUL BYRON - ARTTURI LEHKONEN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
6	44:29	6.1	TOMAS TATAR - JOEL ARMIA - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Careful using facts when talking about KK, better to stick with hyperbole and calling him garbage.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He's 21 next season. He really should start to get closer to his ceiling. Nobody is saying he should have reached his ceiling yet just that he should not be at 50% of it. He really need to take a step next season and get closer to what he could be.

Habs are grooming KK to be a 200' player vs a spoiled offensive type. We need to consider that if other teams drafted him and were more in rebuilding mode, they could place him in an offensive role and let him learn on the job while they tolerate mistakes. Then expect him to learn the 200' part later? That is risky IMO. Domi and Drouin are two examples. Chucky is another.

I feel the Habs development program is different and we focus on grooming players from the back end out. Babcock had that problem with Marner and even Matthews to some degree. Offense, offense, offense and the strategy is others play D for them. Well, all that does is help them get max deals with 1st round exists cause the defensive structure is flawed. However, Matthews had a great season and he was a beast at both ends this past year. Marner has also focused on D but all this comes after Babcock nailed it into them and Keefe gets hired to fine tune it. I bet you Keefe does not take that approach from the beginning. Look at the turnovers Dermott, Sandin, and Galchenyuk caused for them and how the Habs beat them.

Another situation is how Tampa is grooming Sergachev. Their message to him is to learn how to play D first. Offense comes later and it will with Sergachev. Look at Romanov and how the KHL groomed him. Julien/Ducharme are doing the same thing. It's about how to play within the team structure first. KK has to learn that he needs to get his homework done before mom and dad let him do whatever he wants. He also needs the physical strength and skating to help him achieve those team objectives.

Just realized it's the Hoffman thread and I'm talking about how important a 200' player is

 

[Habs Halifax]

There is no circumstance where we should offer this guy 4million. None.

Fair yes. But I also feel you don't know much about his game at the same time. This guy is like a hidden warrior... similar to Chiarot when he was with the Jets.

 

[CHfan1]

Well first off, Hoffman is much more of a goal scorer than Anderson. Can't compare Hoffman to Anderson IMO. But I will concede that KK played more with Toffoli than I originally thought.

Anyways, here are the top line combos with TOI and % for the 2020-21 regular season. Oh and KK averaged 14:48 TOI this year (Regualar Season).

1	85:53	11.9	JOSH ANDERSON - JONATHAN DROUIN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
2	67:06	9.3	COREY PERRY - TYLER TOFFOLI - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
3	58:58	8.2	JOEL ARMIA - ARTTURI LEHKONEN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
4	55:18	7.6	TYLER TOFFOLI - JOEL ARMIA - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
5	47:53	6.6	PAUL BYRON - ARTTURI LEHKONEN - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI
6	44:29	6.1	TOMAS TATAR - JOEL ARMIA - JESPERI KOTKANIEMI

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

To put this into perspective, according to Dobber Frozen Line tools (which the above date was taken) Kotkaniemi played with Byron and Anderson a total of 153:50 in 19 games in the playoffs. His top two lines combos combined in the regular season don’t even add to that.

Hopefully in the upcoming regular season he has more consistent linemates where he can build
chemistry and confidence.

 

[417]

I think this is what many fans don't get.

When KK was drafted, it was because of the player he was projected to be during his prime (~23-32 years old, give or take). That hasn't changed. The surprise was that at 18 years old he was able to hold his own in the NHL. This did not mean that all of a sudden he was going to enter his prime at 19 or 20 years old, it meant that he could develop and learn at the NHL level.

Basically any contribution we got from KK during his first three seasons (and maybe his next 1-2 as well depending on how his usage) should be looked at as a bonus. He may have '3 NHL seasons' under his belt, but he is still just about to start his age 21 season. Add to that the fact that he's European, and needs more time to adjust to the NA game, and there's even more reason to require patience.

He may never be an all-star (although it's still possible), but he still has lots of time to grow into the player he will be in his prime. At some point, he will also have to be given a legit opportunity to run with a top 6 center job for an extended period of time with good, consistent wingers too. I'm hoping this season will be that time, but we'll have to wait and see.

Great post...you've restored my faith that this thread might be salvaged afterall

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Fair yes. But I also feel you don't know much about his game at the same time. This guy is like a hidden warrior... similar to Chiarot when he was with the Jets.

I feel you don’t know his game at all, so there is that. I also don’t feel like Chiarot was some hidden gem either. I’d prefer if he wasn’t on the roster either, but he is.

 

[TannedBum]

What are those numbers? Bring some context at least if you want to make a point...

Context.. Haha. That's not going to save you. I have some context for you. Lets make it even worse and compare Chucky's and KK's first three seasons. Yeah, lets not do that. No one wants to see those numbers.

 

[jackeymoon]

It's up to Kotkaniemi to prove that he wants it. If he shows up to camp at the same or similar weight, well we know how the story's going to end at that point.

I'm rather skeptical of his progression. Right now I think it's fair to say he's trending for a 3rd line role. At best.