Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[CHfan1]

Tell me how he's progressed. Something tangible/verifiable...

The things he has gotten better at is in the faceoff dot, going from 45.9 in his rookie season to 47.9 this season (and 49.4 in the playoffs this season).

He’s also got better on takeaways/giveaways. He led the Habs this season in both takeaways with 33 and takeaway/giveaway net ratio with +9. He was -18 in his rookie season.

He’s shown he’s able to elevate his game in the playoffs and score key goals. He’s 2nd on the team in goals scored in the last two playoffs combined with 9 and has scored the most 1st goals in a playoff game with 4 (scoring first was key in the Habs playoff run this season).

He has gotten stronger and his skating has improved. He’s also shown flashes that he can be one of the better players on the ice (in the bubble last season, earlier this season) but is definitely inconsistent and needs to improve on that and and getting physically fatigued.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't talk down about him. I state facts that people here don't like.

No you don't. You invent BS left, right and center.
Nobody is labeling anyone who doesn't think KK isn't the next Kopitar as a hater.
Nobody ever believed Galch was hard set as this 90+ center.
Nobody said Tinordi was going to be Pronger.
Nobody expected A.Kost to score 50 goals.

You're just talking crap, all the time.

 

[Garbageyuk]

The things he has gotten better at is in the faceoff dot, going from 45.9 in his rookie season to 47.9 this season (and 49.4 in the playoffs this season).

He’s also got better on takeaways/giveaways. He led the Habs this season in both takeaways with 33 and takeaway/giveaway net ratio with +9. He was -18 in his rookie season.

He’s shown he’s able to elevate his game in the playoffs and score key goals. He’s 2nd on the team in goals scored in the last two playoffs combined with 9 and has scored the most 1st goals in a playoff game with 4 (scoring first was key in the Habs playoff run this season).

He has gotten stronger and his skating has improved. He’s also shown flashes that he can be one of the better players on the ice (in the bubble last season, earlier this season) but is definitely inconsistent and needs to improve on that and and getting physically fatigued.

You are really grasping at straws with this one (the bolded).

I'll give you the giveaway/takeaway thing, although a lot of that is due to him being sheltered and not playing against the other team's top players. We'll see if it holds up this coming season in a tougher division, and with (presumably) tougher minutes.

As far as the playoff goalscoring goes, you're right, he has scored a few goals. However, he actually was worse in that regard this year on a per game basis, and was benched to end the playoffs, as we all know. Hard to call that an improvement.

Lastly, the skating and getting stronger thing just isn't true. He's on his ass just as much as he ever was, and he got benched in the finals because he couldn't keep up with Tampa's skating. The comments from Armia are him trying to instill confidence in the kid - his job as a veteran team mate. What's he going to do? Publicly call out a younger team mate on his lack of progress? I don't think so.

Don't you think the need to point to these very marginal improvements in an argument like this tells you something? I wish there was more to talk about here because I really do hope KK can step it up, but I'd be lying if I said his trajectory isn't concerning.

 

[CHfan1]

You are really grasping at straws with this one (the bolded).

I'll give you the giveaway/takeaway thing, although a lot of that is due to him being sheltered and not playing against the other team's top players. We'll see if it holds up this coming season in a tougher division, and with (presumably) tougher minutes.

As far as the playoff goalscoring goes, you're right, he has scored a few goals. However, he actually was worse in that regard this year on a per game basis, and was benched to end the playoffs, as we all know. Hard to call that an improvement.

Lastly, the skating and getting stronger thing just isn't true. He's on his ass just as much as he ever was, and he got benched in the finals because he couldn't keep up with Tampa's skating. The comments from Armia are him trying to instill confidence in the kid - his job as a veteran team mate. What's he going to do? Publicly call out a younger team mate on his lack of progress? I don't think so.

Don't you think the need to point to these very marginal improvements in an argument like this tells you something? I wish there was more to talk about here because I really do hope KK can step it up, but I'd be lying if I said his trajectory isn't concerning.

You’ve, apparently, made your decision that he’s a bust and he’s almost peaked as a player. And really no argument anyone here makes will change your mind.

Let’s see next season (and over the next few seasons as he reaches his prime (around 24/25 or so) how he progresses. All I’m looking for from the organization is to give him consistent linemates in the regular season and to stick with him if he has a couple down games. He needs to develop chemistry with linemates and the confidence in his game.

Again he may have 200 games under him already but he’s still one of the youngest players in the league (he was the 3rd youngest skater and youngest centre in the NHL playoffs this past season). Maybe it’s just me but I believe there is room for more growth in someone who has played 200 games at the age of 20 vs someone who has played 200 games at the age of 24.

The one thing I do see is he wants to put the work in, both in the offseason and during the season, to improve. I think it’ll pay off but, again, we’ll see:

 

[Archijerej]

KK can put 25G and 55a next year and people would still shit on him.

No. No, they wouldn't.

Both you and me know he's not going to score 25G and 80P next season, so I don't really get this argument.

 

[Holystik]

This seems to be the polarizing thread of the summer.
Grab a seat lads!

 

[BLONG7]

Habs have 2 months off this offseason, not 6 months like the usual....he will not put on much weight......

 

[BLONG7]

The things he has gotten better at is in the faceoff dot, going from 45.9 in his rookie season to 47.9 this season (and 49.4 in the playoffs this season).

He’s also got better on takeaways/giveaways. He led the Habs this season in both takeaways with 33 and takeaway/giveaway net ratio with +9. He was -18 in his rookie season.

He’s shown he’s able to elevate his game in the playoffs and score key goals. He’s 2nd on the team in goals scored in the last two playoffs combined with 9 and has scored the most 1st goals in a playoff game with 4 (scoring first was key in the Habs playoff run this season).

He has gotten stronger and his skating has improved. He’s also shown flashes that he can be one of the better players on the ice (in the bubble last season, earlier this season) but is definitely inconsistent and needs to improve on that and and getting physically fatigued.

Armia obviously does not have an HF account, his opinion will mean nothing to the brilliant minds on HF.
LOL..............nice post....

 

[sandviper]

Armia obviously does not have an HF account, his opinion will mean nothing to the brilliant minds on HF.
LOL..............nice post....

Yup, I’d trust the opinion of a person who actually plays the game at a high level versus one who hides behind a keyboard with the word garbage in their name.

 

[Habs Icing]

To be fair about comparing to Le Gros Bill, Scotty even qualified it on Melnick’s show : was more to do about the similar physical stature (size & lankiness) of both at a similar young age.

Scotty said he was not insinuating KK has similar dominating talent, but his physical makeup & awkward skating reminded him of Beliveau

Thanks for the clarification but the original poster linked to that Bowman tweet as proof of KK's untapped potential without that qualification.

 

[BLONG7]

No. No, they wouldn't.

Both you and me know he's not going to score 25G and 80P next season, so I don't really get this argument.

The point being............the HF haters, gonna hate......no matter what the kid does.

 

[Habs Icing]

No you don't. You invent BS left, right and center.
Nobody is labeling anyone who doesn't think KK isn't the next Kopitar as a hater.

You know what? This post was only a dozen posts above yours.

So you're doubting the great Scotty Bowman now? He's forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know. You must have a real hate on for this kid,

And this next one was only a dozen posts after yours but I don't expect you to predict what will be said in the future. So you get a pass on that one. I'm just posting it to show you how prevalent it is on this board to call a KK dissenter a hater.

The point being............the HF haters, gonna hate......no matter what the kid does.

So who is making up crap now?

 

[Habs Halifax]

The things he has gotten better at is in the faceoff dot, going from 45.9 in his rookie season to 47.9 this season (and 49.4 in the playoffs this season).

He’s also got better on takeaways/giveaways. He led the Habs this season in both takeaways with 33 and takeaway/giveaway net ratio with +9. He was -18 in his rookie season.

He’s shown he’s able to elevate his game in the playoffs and score key goals. He’s 2nd on the team in goals scored in the last two playoffs combined with 9 and has scored the most 1st goals in a playoff game with 4 (scoring first was key in the Habs playoff run this season).

He has gotten stronger and his skating has improved. He’s also shown flashes that he can be one of the better players on the ice (in the bubble last season, earlier this season) but is definitely inconsistent and needs to improve on that and and getting physically fatigued.

He seems to be better at faceoffs in the offensive end. Here are the zone % breakdown this past regular season and playoffs. This is a matter of focus and will power... and the more I think about it, the more I come to realize that he likes playing on offense more than defense. And I feel that now that we have improved the wingers even more, we can utilize him more effectively on the offensive zone.

Regular Season:
OZ: 53.4% (236 draws)
NZ: 42.1% (183 draws)
DZ: 46.2% (130 draws)

Playoffs:
OZ: 60.8% (51 draws)
NZ: 41.5% (65 draws)
DZ: 47.4% (38 draws)

 

[Naslund]

No. No, they wouldn't.

Both you and me know he's not going to score 25G and 80P next season, so I don't really get this argument.

My only point is that I feel people would still complain about him even if there is a major increase in his point output. He's still falling. He does not shoot fast enough, He getting carried by Toffoli...

 

[Habs Icing]

My only point is that I feel people would still complain about him even if there is a major increase in his point output. He's still falling. He does not shoot fast enough, He getting carried by Toffoli...

A clarification, please. Does KK fall while Toffoli is carrying him or Toffoli carries him only after KK falls?

 

[Archijerej]

My only point is that I feel people would still complain about him even if there is a major increase in his point output. He's still falling. He does not shoot fast enough, He getting carried by Toffoli...

They wouldn't. Come on...

I wish Kotkaniemi's defenders were a little bit more honest in this discussion.

Some of them claimed he should have been our #1C in his rookie year. Apparently, Tatar-Danault-Gallagher line was holding the team back (despite being one of the best lines in the NHL) and there was an immense depth of offensive potential if only Kotkaniemi got the chance to play with Tatar and Gallagher.

Some claimed he was playing Selke-calibre defence. They even showed the charts, which, predictably, ignored the context of deployment.

When other posters started to hold Kotkaniemi accountable to these idiotic claims, the defenders cried foul.

Let's not kid ourselves. They largely brought it upon themselves.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Neither one of those 2 are anything remotely close to a 3rd line C lol..

Strawmen need to be demolished.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They wouldn't. Come on...

I wish Kotkaniemi's defenders were a little bit more honest in this discussion.

Some of them claimed he should have been our #1C in his rookie year. Apparently, Tatar-Danault-Gallagher line was holding the team back (despite being one of the best lines in the NHL) and there was an immense depth of offensive potential if only Kotkaniemi got the chance to play with Tatar and Gallagher.

Some claimed he was playing Selke-calibre defence. They even showed the charts, which, predictably, ignored the context of deployment.

When other posters started to hold Kotkaniemi accountable to these idiotic claims, the defenders cried foul.

Let's not kid ourselves. They largely brought it upon themselves.

I went from being very happy that we drafted him to very upset that we prematurely inserted him at 3C cause we had a need and rushed him. My favorite quote when KK was 18... "he don't look out of place". That's not how you develop a long term prospect at center! Horrible and because they did this, they leap frogged him from bottom 6 in the Finish league to 3C in the NHL. He didn't get a chance to develop his offensive game in lower leagues.

I still think he will be who he is but it's not the rollercoaster ride I would have chosen for our 3rd OA pick.

Bergevin should have told Julien that he's not making team. I feel that Bergevin let Julien make the decision.

 

[Doc McKenna]

He was much more at ease and more creative in his rookie season.

Yeah because he didn't get stapled to the bench everytime he made a bad play and there was no expectations. Habs are terrible at development. Suzuki also looked better his first year than last year. We stifle creativity.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Strawmen need to be demolished.

 

[Archijerej]

Yeah because he didn't get stapled to the bench everytime he made a bad play and there was no expectations. Habs are terrible at development. Suzuki also looked better his first year than last year. We stifle creativity.

Stapled to the bench?

Not counting his second season, when he was atrocious and deservedly demoted (too late in fact), he has played more than 95% of the total number of games.

What you're saying is just another worthless exaggeration that's so often brought forward when Kotkaniemi is discussed.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Yeah, we know the type ….

So you think DD and Bowman are of the same calibre coach? Dom wouldn't have gotten us to the playoffs in any other division, mostly because of the roles he put players in!, Like Danault getting 20 minutes a game. Still a terrible coach. Only thing that saved him was Carey (the team) Price. It was proven again when we couldn't score goals to make the playoffs easier.

indeed! Your take is completely wrong.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Stapled to the bench?

Not counting his second season, when he was atrocious and deservedly demoted (too late in fact), he has played more than 95% of the total number of games.

What you're saying is just another worthless exaggeration that's so often brought forward when Kotkaniemi is discussed.

What part of bench can't you read. How many times has this kid had 10 minute games, or been last for forwards TOI. And yes he was one of only a few players that had a benching at all, nevermind the fact he has had multiple ones during the playoffs..

But do go one with your narrative while ignoring the fact only tatar took a beating like KK and tatar (4th OA) was one of our better forwards point wise regular season.

Noticed you guys stop bringing up his FO percentage now that he is close to 48% and far above suzuki. I guess its hard to ride a false narrative and a lesser important stat. Gretz would have Messier take the draw late in the game if it was critical.

 

[Kriss E]

You know what? This post was only a dozen posts above yours.

And this next one was only a dozen posts after yours but I don't expect you to predict what will be said in the future. So you get a pass on that one. I'm just posting it to show you how prevalent it is on this board to call a KK dissenter a hater.

So who is making up crap now?

You were called a hater because instead of simply saying you disagree with Bowman, you insult the men by questioning his mental aptitude. So ya, that's justified.

I never said nobody has ever used the word hate/haters here man...so not sure what it is you thought you just proved.

 

[Doc McKenna]

lol. You guys are too much.

"Suzuki's PPG was flat"

No shit sherlock. He lead the team in scoring two years in a row. Somehow this is supposed to be a bad thing and a testament for Kotkaniemi who was scratched by the coaching staff for the last two games.

Let me guess. Because Julien, Muller, Ducharme, Richardson and Burrows are all idiots?

IS the guy that played him during the playins when CJ finally wasn't there. Thats when the entire board felt "hey this kid doesn't look nearly as bad on the second line!" Then Phil "I never had offensive opportunities in my 20 minutes a game" Danault went crying to the media about his usage and no gally/tatar. This continues into the new year and on ward.

The ONLY coach that let him fly was Muller and KK looked good in those playoffs. So try again. Every other coach has screwed this kid over for tired vets like staal, or The Defensive Specialist-that hates being a defensive specialist. When Muller gave him a chance in the plaoffs he looked to have turned the corner. Go look at the playoff threads from 2020. Or even the preseason and the first few games when he had toffoli on his line. Toff got moved off KKs line to help struggling danault (goaless in a year), then had the mixmaster of linemates. Even staal had more steady linemates. Thats important foir young guys, even in non hockey jobs.